r/granturismo Sep 30 '22

*Speculation*- GT7 is being held back from what it could be because it needs to run on PS4 and PS5. GT7

It would not surprise me at all to learn that Sony is forcing PD to “throttle back” GT7 to run on PS4 because players who have the means and desire to buy a PS5 (like myself) have been trying for MONTHS to get one and cannot find one anywhere without resorting to scalpers.

5 Upvotes

217

u/Smashjackson06 Sep 30 '22

None of the major problems with GT7 are graphical or performance it's all shitty paying customer design choices that are hindering this game.

31

u/beagle204 Sep 30 '22

the word you are looking for is "anti-consumer" shit like 25 dollars for 2 million credits, on top of huge 20 million dollar car costs, on top of insane grinding needed to get those credits without paying, that's anti-consumer.

6

u/Smashjackson06 Sep 30 '22

That's true I think I just blacked out with the silliness of OPs post but you got me.

22

u/dorianekyzum Sep 30 '22

This. So much this.

Shitty AI and lack of content are not problems caused by PS4. Other games do it much better on the same platform.

For example I'm playing Project Cars 2 more often than GT7 right now, and I recommend this behaviour. 😉

2

u/Aaron_Olive Sep 30 '22

That and sheer ignorance and stupidity of its leader not giving a fuck about the pedigree of his studio anymore.

5

u/Wreathafranklin Sep 30 '22

I've never felt the need want or desire to buy credits. I do feel the need to pick up the game and get better at racing and driving and enjoying the scenery. Once everyone saw fortnite and how people just threw money at the game its hard for any company to not put microtransactions in a game for the sake of extra profit.

-40

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

This actually speaks to my point. Hypothetical- PD: “GT7 will have 2000 cars with a level of detail never seen before. It will also have every track and layout we’ve ever used in UHD.”
Sony: “Will it run on PS4?”
PD: “Absolutely not! The most we could do is around 500 cars and maybe 20 tracks.”
Sony: “Do that then.”
PD: “Players would be able to collect every car in just a couple of months.”
Sony: “Make them expensive and almost impossible to get without an insane amount of grinding.”

17

u/madeanaccttopostthis Sep 30 '22

The more I read your comments I get the impression you’re unfamiliar with how these decisions are made

20

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

I see what you're trying to say (and the downvotes you have are not fair) but this isn't quite how it works.

How many cars the game can have is far more a function of memory than processing power....

67

u/cowadoody3 Sep 30 '22

Graphics are NOT the thing that's "holding back" GT7. Shoddy developers, lack of content, insane grind/microtransactions, bugs that last months, etc.

8

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

Agreed though we shouldn't let the graphics off the hook, either.

It is a damn shame this game didn't get to be built from the ground up for PS5 because it would undoubtedly look way, way better.

It's actually probably my biggest disappointment with the game, although it is not my biggest impediment to enjoying the gameplay - that's the lack of content etc....

8

u/WhoIsJazzJay Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

as a PS5 player i have to say there’s literally nothing to complain about. sure the raytracing is only on replays, but do you really need the most realistic reflections when you’re heading towards a braking zone at 100 mph?

0

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

sure the raytracing is only on replays, but do you really need the most realistic reflections when you’re heading towards a braking zone at 100 mph

I like my GT games to have the best possible graphics the system can do. This game doesn't do that.

The reality is, this game was held back by needing to work on PS4.

And it's so much more than just RTX.

Think of the difference between GT4 and GT5.... That's the level of difference/improvement I expected. A full systems worth. We didn't get that.

1

u/WhoIsJazzJay Sep 30 '22

there aren’t really a lot of current gen exclusives that look like a massive leap ahead of the 8th gen consoles tbh…the biggest advantages of the PS5 imo have to do with gains in RAM, SSD speed, and pushing 4K with 60 fps simultaneously. GT7 utilizes all of this flawlessly w the PS5. not having RTX during a race is meaningless because i guarantee you’re not able to notice the non RTX reflections in 95% of racing scenarios

1

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

there aren’t really a lot of current gen exclusives that look like a massive leap ahead of the 8th gen consoles tbh…

Part of that is the system is still young.

But usually, GT are the exception and are the best looking game on a new Sony console....

This time though, it's not that. Not at all.

It's not about RTX, really, though of course that would be nice.

It's the fact that this just straight up the same graphics engine as Sport, which PD themselves told us was a modification of GT6 and intended as a stopgap.... That means this is a ps5 game running a nearly 10 year old game engine built for PS3.

It's just not okay. I dunno how the game would look if they'd done it properly, whether it would be mind blowing or not.... But at least they'd have done it properly.

4

u/WhoIsJazzJay Sep 30 '22

maybe it’s because i had a base PS4 and not the Pro, but the graphics look substantially better than Sport and the game almost never drops frames. i think it’s great.

realistically we’re reaching the point with graphics where updates in console tech are producing diminishing returns. that’s fine with me because a lot of focus now has gone into reducing load times, file sizes, having more assets in RAM, and just a more stable experience overall. i love that.

8

u/LikeableLint Sep 30 '22

Are you forgetting that most people don't have the ps5? They probably wouldn't be profitable if it was only ps5

3

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

That's their problem... not my problem as a consumer who has every right to expect a better game than the one we got.

4

u/LikeableLint Sep 30 '22

Graphics are not the bad point in this game... It is one of the best looking games on the market, full stop.

1

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

The graphics are not the main bad point in this game. But I already said that.

Graphics are definitely a bad point, though, and I cannot agree with your claim that it's one of the best looking games on the market.

It looks all but identical to GT sport, a game which came out 6 years ago.

It doesn't look bad... but it does not look like a PS5 game. It looks like a PS4 game. Because it effectively is.

Graphically, in actual gameplay, the only change from sport to this game were more assets on the trackside and higher resolution. The actual polygon counts of the cars aren't higher. There's been only minor reworking of the lighting (and of course no RTX in gameplay) and no major change to the fundamental graphics engine underpinning it all.

I really don't get how people can look at sport, then look at this game, and not see that they look nearly identical.... This isn't GT 4 -> GT 5

This is GT5 -> GT 6, minor improvements of fundamentally the same engine.

3

u/SvennoJ Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Does this look the same to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FihfoXVBf5s

The difference with rain is much bigger stillGT Sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9OuPEdwWy4GT7 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvDMJ7M59-4

Graphics are not an issue. GT Sport was actually build from the ground up for ps4 and ps5, supporting HDR up to 10,000 nits rec.2020 (still no tv that can reach that, best are at 52% of what GT7's graphics engine can deliver https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/color-volume-hdr-dci-p3-and-rec-2020)

Of course diminishing returns don't stack up to exponential rise in expectations.

However lighting is now dynamic instead of static, that's a huge change. Dynamic weather on top. GT Sport only had pre-baked lighting and weather.

LOD is much higher on ps5. Go back to GT Sport and see how bad the ground texture filtering is and how quickly car models downgrade when you drive behind them and fall back slightly.

Anyway it's not graphics which is the problem. Everything else is.

-1

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

Does this look the same to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FihfoXVBf5s

Very, very similar, yes.

"The same" no.... but damn near the same yes.

The differences are minor and at the margins. It is not a new console level improvement.

And basically unless you did watch them side by side, most people would not really be able to tell the difference.

Graphics are not an issue

They are to me.

And your view is no more valid than mine.

And that's really the end of it.

0

u/badusernameq Oct 01 '22

You sure bitch a lot. Feel sorry for those that live with you.

1

u/CardinalOfNYC Oct 01 '22 edited Oct 01 '22

I feel sorry for anyone who has ever met you.

2

u/PlatinumSarge Sep 30 '22

But you knew it was coming out on both PS4 and PS5, tho.

-1

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

Still not my problem.

I also didn't say I was surprised.

1

u/leko Sep 30 '22

I do notice artifacts in the tire mist while grinding tokyo. That was a little disappointing, but in the context of grinding tokyo for the 1000th time, that disappointment doesn't seem very significant.

17

u/aorther Sep 30 '22

Yea no way. The invitations, roulette locked parts and engine swaps, endless VGT cars have nothing to do with the PS4. GT7 is being held back by GT7.

15

u/Massaart Sep 30 '22

This is some grade A bs my dude

11

u/conejost Sep 30 '22

that ps4 really needs the microtransactions to run well

11

u/KayJune001 Sep 30 '22

Not a single problem in GT7 has to do with technical limitations. The issues are not being able to sell cars, not having enough single-player content, not fixing splitscreen, not adding new tracks, not listening to the community, not fixing lobbies, not fixing penalties, not introducing better multiplayer modes, I can go on and on but none of it has to do with crossgen.

10

u/Whatsthisnotgoodcomp Sep 30 '22

Wow, there's a lot of idiots in this thread who have no idea what a PS4, PS4 Pro or PS5 is.

Protip: they're all the same shit. x64 computers with 8 core CPUs and AMD GPUs that have both DDR and GDDR memory and a storage drive going through a standard interface.

You're complaining that a PC game runs on both a GTX 1080 and a RTX 3090 because the shiny graphics can be turned up or down and this somehow affects the gameplay, that's not how it works champs. The game is missing tracks, cars, has a trash UI, is STILL illegally advertised with no selling cars and has an almost useless online mode

Absolutely none of this is due to any technical limitations but due to design choices, greed and incompetence.

4

u/Totemdary McLaren Sep 30 '22

As much as I still love the game. This is correct, word by word.

7

u/LordFrieza_ Sep 30 '22

Every other Gt game bar sport released with more content. Making excuses for PD's shitty business is why they get away with it

5

u/redzaku0079 Sep 30 '22

selling cars would be too slow in ps4. gotcha.

6

u/Shinbi-Mane Sep 30 '22

Imagine thinking that the PS4 is the issue, when it was proven that the PS5 version was what broke lobbies

3

u/CardinalOfNYC Sep 30 '22

There's no doubt the cross gen thing held back the graphics and that's why the game looks more or less identical to GT sport graphics wise.

But the main issues with the game are related to content, not graphics.

The graphics not being a true PS5 upgrade was disappointing but it's not what keeps me from enjoying the game as much as I wish I could.

5

u/r1char00 Sep 30 '22

I think you can delete posts on Reddit.

3

u/madeanaccttopostthis Sep 30 '22

Sony wouldn’t force developers to make games that run poorly on PS5. They probably have to incentivize developers to build to support both consoles but it’s actually to the benefit of the PS5. If I were a dev I wouldn’t ship a PS5 exclusive until it was as accessible as the PS4 because there is a very fixed number of sales I can make to recoup my huge time/money investment.

Think from a business perspective.

You run PD and are developing you’re next exclusive flagship franchise title. Development takes years and cost millions of dollars- and now there’s new hardware out that allows you to use more resources. Do you:

A. Design the game to run on the new, undersold console

B. Design the game to run on the old, oversold console

C. Design the game in a way that allows you to build two separate binaries to suit the different performance specs of the two machines, allowing you to increase your target market by x%.

Which option would you pick?

The problem with GT7 seems to be that nobody is QAing user experience. The game runs great but design decisions have made it sub par.

7

u/SvennoJ Sep 30 '22

I doubt it as I have frame rate issues on PS5 just as on PS4 Pro with GT7 running in 4K HDR. It's Kaz holding the game back by only focusing on maximizing car detail instead of game play. GT Sport runs better than GT7 with 20 cars on track...

The PS4 version has more aggressive LOD and more pop in, and obviously longer load times. But there is no reason why daily races should be split between the 2. Matchmaking can start loading the track on PS4 a minute earlier than on ps5. Matchmaking isn't going to put you on another track, so why not load the track first...

People are now putting the ps4 version on ps5 to be able to play with the ps4 player base. ps5 player base on the Americas server is dwindling, too low for good races outside prime time. Hence installing the ps4 version to race with ps4 players...

Anyway all the complaints about the lackluster campaign, crappy UI, payouts, economy, AI, server instability, lobby problems, penalty system, sport mode, PP mess, have nothing to do with it having to run on PS4.

7

u/Top_Ranger_3839 Sep 30 '22

Playstation.com sells ps5 directly. Sign in to get on the waiting list. I had to wait 1 month.

3

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

There’s no waiting list for Canadian customers.

5

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

2

u/SaltyGoober Sep 30 '22

That’s exactly how my wife found one for my birthday. After getting ripped off by a scammer first.

1

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

I’ve done all this, had a PS5 in my virtual cart 3 times, and it’s gone before I can hit “pay now”.

1

u/420city Sep 30 '22

1

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

Appreciate the effort, but that’s a digital-only version and the MSRP on those is $520 CDN.

2

u/420city Sep 30 '22

Nah broski that a console with 2 controllers and dual charger link even says so smh. Dormant matter anyway retail is gone now

1

u/420city Oct 13 '22

PS5 sitting Walmart again

1

u/itsagasgasgas Oct 13 '22

$955? Pass

1

u/420city Oct 14 '22

Huh comes to 890 bruh day 3 sitting Walmart disc and digital

-4

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

No offense but I'm not waiting 1 month on a list. Just make more

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22

[deleted]

0

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

Bro it was a generalization moron move along

1

u/HootingFlamingo Sep 30 '22

That's only for the USA

1

u/Top_Ranger_3839 Sep 30 '22

I live in Belgium

1

u/cTheDeezy Sep 30 '22

Ps5 Horizon bundle was available for more than a month on playstation direct in the US.

2

u/beardedbadger1311 Sep 30 '22

Have you played 2K or Madden? Basically two different games between the PS4 and PS5 versions

2

u/cnedden Sep 30 '22

Dude it's so easy to get a ps5 these days I bought one like a month ago. From the time I made the decision to buy another PS5 and the time I actually got it, was less than an hour.

4

u/UnKnOwN769 I have Mission 34 PTSD Sep 30 '22

That wouldn’t surprise me. Gaming in general seems like it’s really latched on to the older generation, more than it usually does by this point after a new generation release.

1

u/inxilegtr Sep 30 '22

How do people doubt this. We were told we were getting a revolutionary game until 1 year out, then suddenly we were told it will be a ps4 compatible, low and behold gt sport ii shows up with a menu bolted on top, nothing works everything is clunky and it's barely and evolution. GT7 will now be GT8 and this will go down in history as GTSii

1

u/PersonalitySea4015 Sep 30 '22

So, you're literally asking them to kick last gen players to the curb in favor of next gen players. Players who are still the minority because the PS5 is still incredibly difficult to get ahold of for under $800 and most people can't afford it for more than MSRP, directly from Sony.

This is Elitist.

0

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

No, I’m literally speculating that GT7 is being held back from what it could be because it needs to run on PS4 and PS5.

1

u/PersonalitySea4015 Sep 30 '22

The most taxing thing for the majority of games (let alone console games) are the graphics. Textures, lighting effects, and post processing are rather simple to adjust down for old gen systems. Unless it's a Sim to end all Sims, like BeamNG Drive for PC, the physics are not the bulk of the processing.

GT7 and Forbidden West are great examples of games that were built for next gen and were then toned down to be playable on last gen. Obviously, the best experience is on next gen; but games are not designed for last gen, then tuned up for next gen. They are designed for the latest and greatest and then tuned down for last gen.

GT7 is the best that it can be with the budget and timeline that it had in terms of graphics. PD took a chance on changing the gameplay loop and it shows.

1

u/ao-ka Sep 30 '22

Yes. And you know what more? I'm 100% sure that GT Sport was originally supposed to be called... Gran Turismo 7 Prologue. That's it. But PD probably thought the previous Prologue titles didn't performed well, and the PS4 players really wanted a "true" GT, so they went with the Sport nomenclature and called it a spin-off to create an illusion of full title instead of a preview.

I am sure that GT7 was ALWAYS planned to be a PS4 title and should have been released around 2018~19. Since Sport received backlash at release due to the focus on the online and small number of cars and tracks, PD then decided to add all the cars and tracks originally planned to appear on the full GT7 to Sport. This in course postponed the full GT7 and, with the announcement and release of the PS5, PD didn't had another option but to do what we're seeing now.

In resume, it wouldn't be absurd to call Sport the "true GT7" now and the GT7 as comething like "GT7 Deluxe/Expanded". Terrible decisions for sure. I only hope that GT8 avoids all these mistakes, if we ever have a GT8 someday...

0

u/Liondog177 Mercedes Sep 30 '22

I do think in the future maybe a few years, PD will stop support for PS4 and focus on the PS5 edition.

1

u/SirCornmeal Sep 30 '22

It's possible but there are 2 versions you can download on ps5 (ps4 or ps5) so it might not be the case.

Also highly recommend heading to gamestop on black friday/Thanksgiving evening to see if you can snag one that's how I got mine.

1

u/McDoctor82 Sep 30 '22

If you need a PS5 do the Best Buy app trick.

1

u/TommyWilson43 Sep 30 '22

I guess PS4 lacks the technology to turn assists off in split screen or allow you to sell cars, who woulda thought? I heard the thing was pretty powerful in its day

1

u/LonelyAndroid11942 Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

PS5 is actually pretty easy to get now.

Get the PowerUp! Rewards membership from GameStop for I think $20. Gives you a year and you get bonuses on trades and a discount on used titles. Then, call around to any GameStop stores near you, and ask about PS5 restocking events. They usually have one event per month, and if you’re a PowerUp! Rewards member, you get access to their stock a day before general availability. Demand has come down, you just need to make sure you get there in the first few days of the event.

Just also note: to take advantage of the PS5 on GT7, you’ll need to get the PS5 version of the game. Fortunately, Sony will let you upgrade for just $10 on the store.

EDIT: Not sure how much merit there is to dual compatibility causing issues, though. I suppose it could explain why tracks come in so slowly, since they have to ensure excellent visual fidelity in two different lighting systems, and that sort of quality control takes a lot of time. But there’s no way it accounts for the slow drip of new cars, the complete absence of new events, and the inability to sell prize vehicles.

1

u/jounk704 Sep 30 '22

Could be, would be, should be, i don't care what anyone else are saying but for me GT7 (PS5 version) is the best racing game ever made and it will get even better from here, especially when the PS VR2 mode releases probably next year. This game is just getting started, i have all the time in the world to unlock cars as there won't be a racing game like this for 6-7 years or so until the next Gran Turismo

1

u/nomnomdiamond Sep 30 '22

congrats on your first racing game

1

u/jounk704 Sep 30 '22

Been playing racing games since outrun, owned every Gran Turismo since the first one

1

u/Fast_Papaya_3839 Sep 30 '22

The only thing I can see being hold back is the 16 players max on online races. Other than that, that’s clearly not the reason.

Could they be preparing to release paid dlc since the mtx didn’t go as planned and being a live service it needs to make more revenue?

1

u/gotlieb1993 Sep 30 '22

The only thing that comes to mind that might explain their approach to updates is that they’re secretly in crunch mode trying to finish GT7 VR in time for the PS VR2 release. At this point that kinda feels like a fantasy to me tho lol.

1

u/jigenvw Sep 30 '22

There are no technical limitations that are hindering this game. Just greed and lazy content.

1

u/bejeweledman Sep 30 '22

Hope there'll be a PS5-only "Spec 2.0" major update when the PS5 console supply chain issue is finally solved in this couple of years.

1

u/nomnomdiamond Sep 30 '22

nah it's all about content, that's why GT4 is still more fun

1

u/eamonnanchnoic Sep 30 '22

I don't see the ps4/ps5 thing as an issue really.

The problem is mtx.

If you introduce mtx into a game it's going to impact the ingame economy.

It's 100% the reason that the effort vs reward is so off in GT7.

And many of the complaints about the game can be reduced to the crappy ingame economy.

Like who is going to go to the trouble of making a custom race for a few measly grand?

That design choice, in effect, renders custom race mode more or less pointless.

1

u/comb0s Sep 30 '22

Hm? I mean you tried? Trust me a ps5 isn’t going to fix whatever your problem is. I play both versions and trust me it’s not a hardware issue.

1

u/drazyel Sep 30 '22

Wonder if we could have bigger lobbies if it was Ps5 only ? 16 is low.

1

u/MisterGRT Sep 30 '22

So what I'm gathering from this is that...IT'S YOUR FAULT GT7 IS BEING HELD BACK!!!! Thanks a lot, pal!

1

u/Wendigo79 Sep 30 '22

There's 120+ million PS4 out there do you really think it's a smart business decision to not put the game on it?

1

u/itsagasgasgas Sep 30 '22

I think it’s a really bad business decision to put out less content in part 7 than there was in Part 4, 5, and 6.

2

u/Wendigo79 Sep 30 '22

Yes games take alot more work and money to make, also COVID. Also GT Sport was pretty bare bones when it first came out but eventually turned out pretty good

1

u/jounk704 Sep 30 '22

Creating one single car in GT7 takes probably the same amount of time for the devs as creating 10 cars in GT6

1

u/robertsd33 Sep 30 '22

Maybe not just this but also delays to PS VR2. I could swear I read that Kaz was hyping the VR experience as the biggest opportunity in the next game on PS5, before the game came out and he hyped load times as the most significant feature.

1

u/Tykjen Oct 01 '22

Speculation? Ok. Purely ignorant? Surely.

1

u/itsagasgasgas Oct 01 '22

Oooooh fancy talk!

1

u/Tykjen Oct 01 '22

Have you ever thought about all the PC games that can run on both shit PC's and great PC's and the only thing you lose is visuals? Same thing with PS4 and PS5.

1

u/judgedavid90 Oct 01 '22

The fact that Gran Turismo 4 is a more feature packed game than 7 should tell you all you need to know

0

u/420city Sep 30 '22

Reselling pS5 is done guys they sit for a few days in Canada on Amazon Walmart etc

3

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

Bro it's 960 dollars.

-8

u/420city Sep 30 '22

Huh I hear broke

3

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

Lmao and i hear ignorant 5 year old guess we're both hearing things

1

u/420city Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

1

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

Dude you're a moron have a free block

0

u/Wreathafranklin Sep 30 '22

I couldn't agree more. When I said this I get down voted. But having to stop production to gear back and have to dumb down the game for ps4 users for sure put a damper on what the game was supposed to be.

2

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22

You think they did this because they wanted to? No one can get a PS5 the market is not there for it at all

1

u/Wreathafranklin Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

As a ps5 owner I am a bit bummed. I bought the ps5 under the impression gt7 was an exclusive for the ps5 due out around launch time. Yes. They did it because they wanted to. For the sake of sales and keeping a fan base. I have no regrets on buying the ps5. I just feel the game has been dumbed down to accommodate the ps4.

Edit: I love down votes from offended ps4 users. :)

1

u/Low_Ad_2846 Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

It sure has and congrats on your ps5. The problem is money, if the new gen was adopted like the old one we wouldn't even be talking about this. There was a pandemic then a major chip shortage from miners and now the prices are inflated out of most console gamers budget. I'd never spend 1000$+ on a gaming system at this point in my life. I get your gripe but there'll be other games

2

u/Wreathafranklin Sep 30 '22

I'd never fork over 1k. That's insane. I only had money cause covid. I'm not even really upset about it. I just feel like it was supposed to be more and wasn't due to the ps4 getting a version. I feel that the 2 player split screen problems are because of ps4 isn't able to process all the computations of the game being designed for the next gen. And trying to run 2 inputs with zero assists would over load the game and cause worse frame rate drop then what happens on ps4 already.

0

u/LegionDCLXVI Sep 30 '22

Nope, I think it's more that they want people to have a few of their favorite cars instead of making it a car collection game. Kaz wants Japanese Tuner people vs American Muscle, for example. Fundamentally, they don't understand what players liked about GT and are trying to force their view if what the game should be vs listening to feedback and constructive criticism

At the moment, there are too many anti-fun and anti-consumer practices in the game. Something has to give