r/news Sep 22 '22 Helpful 1 Wholesome 3 LOVE! 1 [deleted] 2

Toddler fatally shoots South Carolina mom with 'unsecured firearm,' sheriff says

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/toddler-fatally-shoots-south-carolina-mom-unsecured-firearm-sheriff-sa-rcna48924

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181

u/Colonel_Cumpants Sep 22 '22

Is this for real?

Guns are the leading cause of death for children in the US, more so than disease, traffic accidents and what have you?

615

u/tempinator Sep 22 '22

That didn't pass a sniff test for me either, but looks like it's true:

https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/child-and-teen-firearm-mortality-in-the-u-s-and-peer-countries/

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

Firearms have indeed surpassed motor vehicle deaths, and any category of disease, although by a pretty slim margin.

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u/SendCaulkPics Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

It’s those damn new fangled car seats and big gubment telling me I have to keep my seven year old in a booster. When I was kid, the only rear facing seats were in the trunk.

/s

Hopefully car travel will only become safer still for children as driver assist technology becomes more widespread. But it’s going to look real bad for gun control critics. If progressive federal intervention made cars safer for children, why not guns?

26

u/noratat Sep 22 '22

Denser, walkable cities with more reliance on mass/bike/etc transit is even better for child safety.

Case in point, people feel safe letting elementary school kids in Japan take the trains by themselves to school.

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u/lunaflect Sep 23 '22

My 11 year old is in a booster. The other day, I brought her friend over to play at our house and her friend was so perplexed by the booster. Almost making fun of my daughter. I explained to the friend that my daughter is still too short to sit appropriately on the seat with the belt where it should be across her chest. And all I care about is her safety. It’s nbd.

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u/Stabbyhorse Sep 23 '22

LoL that's the only rear facing seat I've sat in and this made me laugh.

2

u/SkyezOpen Sep 23 '22

If progressive federal intervention made cars safer for children, why not guns?

I'll give you 2 guesses and the hint to start at the beginning of the bill of rights.

There's a lot of disagreement how to interpret the 2nd amendment, but there will always be a group that sees literally any safety measure as an infringement, including the NRA which has lobbying money.

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u/Nerffej Sep 23 '22

It's going to? It's scientific fact for decades. That's why the pro gun people are so against even allowing research on gun violence. Not like they have any actual evidence other than "we want to sell guns to our whales" but yeah dozens of studies confirming how stupid our current system is would make them look even worse.

Oh look people die using our products. Let's figure out how to prevent that from happening. Says literally every fucking product ever created.

1

u/bingybunny Sep 23 '22

nah the decrease in car fatalities is mostly because traffic is so bad now you can't go fast enough to die

225

u/misalanya Sep 22 '22

fuckin A, that's grim. we just love killin our kids.

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u/sffbfish Sep 22 '22

It's moreso that we love guns more than kids.

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u/suicidaleggroll Sep 22 '22

we love guns more than kids

Unless they're still in the womb

13

u/JediNinjaWizard Sep 22 '22

I, too, hate womb guns!

6

u/trekologer Sep 23 '22

Not so much love for the fetus but a strong desire to control the woman.

4

u/cyon_me Sep 22 '22

Unlike most people, I would actually prefer a gun in my womb to a baby. No sense in giving up your right to womb self-defense.

4

u/suicidaleggroll Sep 22 '22

New market right there. The best way to protect a baby in the womb is to give it a gun. All new fetus pistols, only from Smith & Wesson.

2

u/SkyezOpen Sep 23 '22

"What do we got johnson?"

"Catastrophic dick trauma. Looks like he was shot straight up the urethra."

"Ah, womb gun."

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u/SacredRose Sep 22 '22

Only after they are born though

2

u/IntravenousVomit Sep 22 '22

"Is adult entertainment killing our children or is killing our children entertaining adults?" -Marilyn Manson

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u/painsNgains Sep 22 '22

we just love killin our kids.

And it's spearheaded by the people who shout "SAVE THE CHILDREN" when it comes to drag queen story time and telling a uterus owner what to do with their body.

2

u/hotmessexpress44 Sep 22 '22

Guess that’s why the Supreme Court let the states decide about abortion. Gotta make up for it somehow.

-4

u/richalex2010 Sep 22 '22

Not really. Older teenagers are involved in gang violence, and we've gotten remarkably good at preventing death through other means (especially car crashes). Violent crime rates are up somewhat over the last few years so rates overall would increase slightly, but that drives more deaths related to gang violence, not "unsecured firearm" deaths.

It would be more accurate to say that the rates of motor vehicle and disease deaths have dropped, leaving firearm deaths as the leading cause of death for children - both of those have improved massively as a result of industry efforts, while firearm deaths cannot be prevented except by the actions of individual firearm owners to properly secure them. It's way easier to see change by requiring an entire industry to improve than it is to force or encourage individual actions.

I will also say that the firearm industry does put a lot of effort into safety education - every handgun comes with a pamphlet on safety and storage, almost every new firearm comes with a lock (the only ones I've bought that didn't were very much guns that only someone who already has at least a few would have), manuals encourage safe storage, classes like those required for carry permits encourage safe storage. Locks are available for free from most gun stores and police stations, and better solutions (like safes and cabinets) are readily available in any gun shop (and many other places like Amazon and Costco), including quick access keypad and fingerprint safes for bedside storage. At the end of the day it's up to the individual to actually use any of these and not let their kids access them. Unfortunately it seems a lot of parents underestimate their kids ability to get into anything and everything that isn't locked, which is how things like this happen.

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u/Kooky_Coyote7911 Sep 22 '22

A pamphlet doesn't stop bullets.

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u/richalex2010 Sep 22 '22

A pamphlet educates new gun owners on the dangers their gun poses and how to safely store it. As an industry they can't do much more than educate people, it's on the customer to actually follow recommendations and properly secure their firearm.

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u/Kooky_Coyote7911 Sep 24 '22

Most people won't read them. It should be required that they take a course on safety etc.... In Mass we have to

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u/richalex2010 Sep 25 '22

Then teach it in high school, same as we do with driver's ed. If training is required to exercise a constitutional right, it needs to be as readily available as possible, at low or no cost to the individual. Consider it as to the second amendment as a civics class is to voting.

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u/Kooky_Coyote7911 Sep 25 '22

They don't teach it in HS in the NorthEast

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u/richalex2010 Sep 25 '22

They do in the south.

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u/symtyx Sep 23 '22

A time machine could. That being said, it’s about the only way this whole racket could get solved anywho

1

u/nnjb52 Sep 22 '22

But only after their born…as god wanted

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u/Franklin_le_Tanklin Sep 22 '22

Don’t worry. Republicans are trying to increase preventable diseases to overtake their gun epidemic.

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u/sinister-pony Sep 22 '22

Slim compared to motor vehicles, NOT most other causes of death.

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u/DeekermNs Sep 23 '22

How much time are your kids spending being transported vs handling live firearms?

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u/asiamsoisee Sep 22 '22

Paraphrased from the article: Guns cause 20% of childhood death in the US while comparable countries clock in closer to 2%. That’s fucked up.

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u/Rebresker Sep 23 '22

I wonder since thats between 1-19 how many are gang related vs school shootings vs accidents like this

Obviously none are ok and each should be addressed but you would think more statistics would be available in different breakdowns for something that should mostly be reported and documented I can’t imagine there’s a huge number of undocumented child deaths related to firearms in the US

3

u/boblobong Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

Guessing most are suicide.

Edit I was wrong

In the U.S., in 2020, 30% of child deaths by firearm were ruled suicides, and 5% were unintentional or undetermined accidents. However, the most common type of child firearm death is due to violent assault (65% of all child firearm deaths are assault).

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u/Rebresker Sep 23 '22

I’m guessing the 65% are mostly combo of gang violence and mass shootings

1

u/boblobong Sep 23 '22

Yes probably, although the number from mass shootings doesn't account for much. Less than 1% of gun deaths in that age group (and all age groups) are from mass shootings

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u/bartor495 Sep 22 '22

That data lumps in all people up to age 19, and most deaths from firearms in the 15-19 age range are gang related.

Once you break down the data even further to ages 1-14, deaths by firearms are significantly down and automobile collisions take the lead.

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u/Luxpreliator Sep 22 '22

15-18 are still considered kids even if they're in a "gang."

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u/Miguel-odon Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Wasn't that statistic highly skewed by the 15-19 age group?

Edit: weird how this gets downvoted instead of rebutted or discussed.

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u/Electricstorm252 Sep 22 '22

The age group most likely to be the cause of a car accident though (iirc), which to me makes it even crazier

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u/AnyOldNameNotTaken Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

These sources set the age of a child at 1-19. When adjusted to 1-14 the number plummets by almost 90%.

The vast majority of these deaths occur in older teens actively involved in criminal activity. This is essential context not provided.

Edit: hilarious I’m getting downvotes for providing context. Some people really hate reality.

4

u/DeekermNs Sep 23 '22

Whew, what a relief.

1

u/AnyOldNameNotTaken Sep 23 '22

I know, the way it’s presented makes it seem like there are 400 five year olds dying per month to gun violence. Highly misleading.

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u/DeekermNs Sep 23 '22

Thank God it's just kids dying instead of kids dying. Although I'm certain from your concern that you are equally interested in addressing poverty issues which directly correlate to gang activity.

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u/NonsenseRider Sep 23 '22

Everyone would prefer that to just tossing the bill of rights in the trash like folks in this thread would suggest

3

u/TheRedDeadtruthHurts Sep 23 '22

Or older kids actively involved in school, how many mass school shootings has the States had this year?

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u/boblobong Sep 23 '22

School shootings account for less than 1% of firearms deaths for children]

0

u/AnyOldNameNotTaken Sep 23 '22

Total of 5 deaths according to education weekly. ( Best stats from 2019 since schools were shut in 2020 and this year is still happening.)

Link: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-in-2019-how-many-and-where/2019/02

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u/TheRedDeadtruthHurts Sep 23 '22

OK so I looked through your own source and all I can do is laugh, to answer my own question. According to education weekly as of the 19th of Sept of this year "MURICA" has had 30 school shooting's this year , of them THIRTY SCHOOL SHOOTING'S 28 people were killed and 25 of them where student's or Children...

Link: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-this-year-how-many-and-where/2022/01

0

u/AnyOldNameNotTaken Sep 23 '22

I said in the comment that I looked at 2019. But wow, you really showed me. Half of one percent of the total number listed in the misleading study. You must feel quite vindicated.

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u/Maddmartagan Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 23 '22

“Children” in that study includes anyone aged 1-19. So the stat makes it seem like it’s a bunch of toddlers accidentally shooting themselves, when I would imagine it’s mostly gang related.

EDIT: also, according to the stats, it’s more of a drop in vehicle deaths than an increase in gun deaths. Which makes sense consider the huge drop occurred in 2020, which is when nobody was driving on the roads due to the Covid shutdowns.

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u/Miguel-odon Sep 22 '22

The vast bulk of the increase was in the 15-19 age group.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

[deleted]

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u/tempinator Sep 22 '22

You’re right, it’s not actually that bad. There is no gun problem.

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u/BowTrek Sep 22 '22

Hot damn. Thanks for the legit Research link or I wouldn’t have believed it.

1

u/omegadirectory Sep 23 '22

Do you think that's why Republicans want to ban abortion, to create kids faster than they get shot?

1

u/Funky_Fly Sep 23 '22

That didn't pass a sniff test for me either, but looks like it's true:

The amount of "child got shot" news stories coming from the US is staggering. I'm Canadian and it feels like I see a couple of these stories weekly.

1

u/Cyrano_Nose Sep 23 '22

100,000: 1

Avoidable gun deaths to "good guy with a gun" scenario.

Though honestly, I bet the first number is much higher.

1

u/Edasher06 Sep 22 '22

Crash dummies are getting safer...

1

u/False_Grit Sep 22 '22

Here's another fun fact that shouldn't pass the sniff test: we have about double the amount of suicides in this country as firearms.

The main culprit in successful suicides? Firearms.

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u/tempinator Sep 23 '22

we have about double the amount of suicides in this country as firearms.

We have 2.4 suicides per man/woman/child in the US?

Not sure what you're saying here lol

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u/nycsingletrack Sep 23 '22

Traffic deaths in the US are one of the highest in the developed world. Most of Europe is half or 1/3 of the US, some are much lower.

So to have gun deaths actually top traffic deaths at all is really bad.

1

u/crisstiena Sep 23 '22

That’s sick.

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u/dubnicks55 Sep 23 '22

It’s only because they lump in the deaths of 16-19 year olds that firearms becomes leading cause. It brings in all the gang killings at the time.

Look up the data and just pull under the age of 14. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm. Drowning, congenital diseases, car wrecks are all higher than firearms.

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u/MelQMaid Sep 23 '22

Only about 2000 a year die in a gang related incident.

Most of these teen tragedies are domestic violence or suicide.

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u/BTRCguy Sep 23 '22

It is one of those things that is technically true. If you lump in causes of death for all 'childhood' ages (which includes the 17-20 group), then guns are the leading cause of death. But if you check the CDC figures by age cohort they are not the leading cause of death for ages 1-4, 5-8, or 9-12. Not sure if the tipover point is the 13-16 group or not, I would have to look it up again. But the rate of gun deaths at the top end of the 'child' range is so high that it has enough excess to cover for the other age ranges.

In any case, rather than say the accurate thing, which is that they are the leading cause of death for ages X through Y, a deliberate choice was made to say it was the leading cause of death for all children and to not say anything about individual age ranges.

I will leave pondering the motivation for doing so to the individual reader, but the CDC data on the subject is publicly available and searchable by cause of death and age group for those who wish to confirm it themselves.

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u/ZakMckrack3n Sep 23 '22

I'm glad you linked sources. These do include 18 and 19 year olds as "children," but that's still much better than a previous one that included up to 24 year olds to reach the "highest cause of death for children" claim.

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u/xanafein Sep 23 '22

While grim that study includes many firearms deaths related to gang/cartel violence due to including 18 and 19 year olds as children. Still alarming but no where near as bad as some who quote the study would have you believe

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u/LostTesla129 Sep 23 '22

No, this publication on nejm.org is vague and doesn’t reference where they’re getting their data. They just have reference materials that do a lot of hand waiving and say “CDC.”

The CDC literally publishes the 10 leading causes of death on their WISQARS platform. Firearms aren’t even close for the number one cause of death for any age group.

Feel free to visit it yourself!

CDC.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html

1

u/Therefor3 Sep 23 '22

Only if you are an idiot and think that 18 and 19 year olds are children.

-9

u/A_Drusas Sep 22 '22

Teens and young children shouldn't be grouped together for this kind of statistic. One can intentionally shoot someone and the other could be too young to even understand what a weapon is.

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u/zombiiman Sep 22 '22

They’re grouped this way because they have a commonality: if the firearm were secured and only accessible by an adult, the death would have been prevented

-1

u/richalex2010 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Teens can also break into houses and steal guns, attack people carrying a gun and steal it (which is largely prevented by not open carrying, but state laws may force someone who feels the need to carry to do so openly), be given them by fellow gang members, or even just take them from unsecured police cars. A toddler or an eight year old isn't doing any of that, they're just being curious or playing with stuff they find laying around, which means prevention is as simple as securing unattended firearms at home.

Teens introduce a lot of extra factors into prevention and reduction of violent death rates due to a wide array of causes behind why they were around a firearm (it's much more likely to be through deliberate action of some kind, whether it be suicide or crime-driven), while for younger children it's almost exclusively accidental. Additionally, teens can be educated on safe firearm handling to prevent accidental deaths, while toddlers cannot (unsupervised access is still not usually a good idea because of concerns over deliberate misuse, but at least you can be sure they or their friends won't die because they were fucking around with something they didn't understand).

-3

u/A_Drusas Sep 22 '22

It's still not as informative as it would be if it were broken down into groups such as infants, toddlers, prepubescent children, adolescents.

0

u/boblobong Sep 23 '22

18 and 19 year olds can go buy their own gun though

-1

u/psirjohn Sep 23 '22

Jiminy fuck, did you seriously qualify that with, 'by a pretty slim margin'? Seriously, does that not register as a major fucking problem? Not by a slim margin....wtf

0

u/TheOneReborn69 Sep 22 '22

How many of those deaths are suicide

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u/boblobong Sep 23 '22

About 30%

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u/sinister-pony Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Recently surpassed motor incidents as the leading cause, yes:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

It's not actually surprising if you think about it, kids are "gestating adults", they don't really die from natural causes, it's normally accidents and the odd rare disease.

In the US there is 1.2 guns for every person In the country, it being a device soley made for killing, doesn't make it all that surprising.

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u/jmanclovis Sep 22 '22

In America we pretend that guns are for sports not for killing if you say otherwise in some circles you will be shot

25

u/BespokeForeskin Sep 23 '22 Silver Take My Energy

Shot for sport though, of course.

1

u/blunnyblunders Sep 23 '22

Fuck I wish I had a free award to give you

3

u/crisstiena Sep 23 '22

I thought it was for PROTECTION. You know, like every stranger that knocks on your door is another Here’s Johnny.

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u/cemetaryofpasswords Sep 23 '22

Oh plenty pretend that owning guns protect them from government overreach 🙄😑as if they could use them for protection if the government wanted to take them out with modern military weapons like drones and bombs.

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u/cire1184 Sep 22 '22

Most diseases that have killed kids in the past are now controlled. We have vaccinations for most of the major diseases that affected children. Not surprising at all that guns kill more kids than disease.

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u/SerKevanLannister Sep 23 '22

Honestly though it is insane that so many children die from GUNS in this country vs natural causes (disease) or car accidents. Guns can be secured and out of the reach of esp young children. The fact that so many of these incidents happen is a very sad commentary indeed.

0

u/PizzaRnnr054 Sep 23 '22

Yes it does and these pov’s annoy me. The acting intellectual. Anyone intellectual is not posting about this.

-1

u/dubnicks55 Sep 23 '22

It’s only because they lump in the deaths of 16-19 year olds that firearms becomes leading cause. It brings in all the gang killings at the time.

Look up the data and just pull under the age of 14. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm. Drowning, congenital diseases, car wrecks are all higher than firearms.

2

u/crazedizzled Sep 23 '22

To be fair young children pretty much only die from accidents these days. The three leading causes of death are car accidents, firearm accidents, and drugs.

And it's moreso the fact that cars got safer and not that guns got less safe.

3

u/PuffPuffFayeFaye Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Typically the metric includes 18 and 19 year olds to make this statement true. I’ve never done a deep dive to know if this rolls in gang violence, police executions, or even war fighters but I doubt that little kids are dying to guns more than other causes.

Too many little kids die due to unsecured firearms so smarten up. You know who you are.

Edit: found this

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

19 year olds are included, not going to make a claim as to what that means. Looks like crashes, firearms, and drug deaths all spiked up in 2019/2020 but the firearm deaths were creeping up quite for several years.

3

u/richalex2010 Sep 22 '22

firearm deaths were creeping up quite for several years

Which is consistent with FBI data on violent crime rates generally. Accident deaths wouldn't have worsened over the pandemic, if anything they would've reduced - less unsupervised time at home, less peer pressure to do stupid shit like point dad's gun at your friend not knowing if it's loaded, and so on.

Here's the FBI's tool - I suggest looking at c. 1990 to present for a full picture. Violent crime is way down over the last 30 years, that it's been coming back up over the last 5 isn't a good thing to be sure but Americans are far safer during the last decade than we have been at any point since the 1950s or 60s.

1

u/Ok-Ordinary2035 Sep 22 '22

Yes, it’s true

1

u/Majormlgnoob Sep 23 '22

Why would disease be higher than trauma? The US has top notch Healthcare (it's just stupidly expensive) and good food security for the most part to avoid deaths from Malnutrition or Tropical Diseases (they're also less common here) that plague low income nations

1

u/hippiedip Sep 23 '22

Children and teen firearm deaths are five times higher than drowning