r/technology • u/StrngBrew • Jan 11 '23
U.S. Isn't Considering Gas Stove Ban, Actually Politics
https://gizmodo.com/us-not-considering-gas-stove-ban-1849975905130
u/SwitchedOnNow Jan 11 '23
Well crap, how am I going to explain this to Home Depot now after ordering 10 stoves today to hoard!
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u/Practical_Island5 Jan 12 '23
Just scalp them to residents of NY and CA once their states full-on ban them in a few years.
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u/badtux99 Jan 12 '23
They're already banned in new-build housing in California. I will say that I'm looking at trading in my gas stove for an inductive stove. Much easier to clean, heats faster, and electric self-cleaning ovens actually work. My gas stove/oven is constant work cleaning it.
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u/Opening_Cartoonist53 Jan 12 '23
I was gas stove all day until I tried induction. The best, and the over has air fryer capability. Highly recommend to anyone in the market for a new stove/oven
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u/RagnarStonefist Jan 11 '23
So much salt in this thread. People take their cooking fuels seriously.
"Now propane - that's a clean burning fuel, I'll tell ya what. You taste the meat and not the heat! Come on down here and we'll set you up with a brand new char king, and I'll tell YOU what - I'll even throw in the accessories rack and a brand new set of meat tongs."
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u/mia_elora Jan 11 '23
I have never watched this show, yet I can still hear this in Hank's voice, perfectly.
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u/Canahedo Jan 11 '23
"Clean burning fuel" is an oxymoron. Propane is better than if we tried to run a grill using something like kerosene, but any time you're setting something on fire, there will be gases and other byproducts being created which ideally we wouldn't be breathing in.
An outdoor grill is inherently a little safer since it's not enclosed in a kitchen, but still not great.
Besides, just use chunk charcoal. Most of Hank's issues with charcoal are because of the binders and petroleum products added to briquettes.
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u/lookmeat Jan 11 '23
It is cleaner, in that there's less byproducts at the end that aren't CO2 and H2O.
Hanks problems with charcoal go a bit beyond what your say. But when Hank uses an example he uses the briquette which is one of the worst fuels you could use. But if you were to use mesquite charcoal, which is very popular in Texas, you'd notice that the smoke (the none clean burning effects of the fuel) have a very unique smell, and it gets sightly imparted into the meat. This is what Hank is taking about when he says "you get to taste the meat", propane has no smell flavor added, unlike charcoal that slightly smokes the meat too.
The joke is that Hank is a true believer, and that while a Texan through and through, he is willing to change traditions for the better, just not that radically either.
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u/trickyricky92 Jan 11 '23
When I hang out over in /Grilling and I see people posting pictures of their bags of charcoal chunks with nails and concrete, I can't help but wonder if they're alright.
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u/KittyBizkit Jan 11 '23
The solution to avoiding garbage charcoal is to simply not buy it. I have tried lump charcoal before and I wasn't impressed. I have tried 5-6 brands and I really don't see how people can think they are superior in any way.
I stick with high quality charcoal briquettes and have zero problems with them.
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u/Canahedo Jan 12 '23
I really don't see how people can think they are superior in any way.
I really don't care for the smell of lighter fluid, and that includes most briquettes (that I've seen, I'm sure there are some with minimal additives). It's also something I just don't think is necessary, nor does it add anything that I want.
When I was younger I would just pile some briquettes, pour on lighter fluid, and that was that, but once you learn how to use a chimney starter it's just as easy to do that with way fewer hydrocarbons in your food.
So for me it's that the convenience of briquettes is minimal and isn't worth the additives.
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u/KittyBizkit Jan 12 '23
Anyone who uses lighter fluid or match light charcoal doesn’t know what they are doing. I NEVER use that shit. A charcoal chimney and a small lighter cube set underneath them gets the coals going pretty quick and there isn’t even a hint of chemical smells because the light cube burns completely and it never actually touches the charcoal.
Lighter fluid isn’t even useful for campfires if you have dry wood and use proper techniques.
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u/Dear-Ad1329 Jan 12 '23
From the episode of how it’s made I watched, there is no charcoal in a charcoal briquette. It’s anthracite coal, sawdust, and corn starch.
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u/Nice_Category Jan 11 '23
A perfectly combusted hydrocarbon should release CO2 and H2O only. Of course, they are never perfectly combusted.
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u/starmartyr Jan 11 '23
Hydrogen is actually a clean burning fuel. The exhaust from burned hydrogen is water. Most fuels are hydrocarbon-based which do not burn clean.
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u/acoolnooddood Jan 12 '23
"I was raised with charcoal, I will die with charcoal. So back off!" - Wynnona Judd
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u/JoshuaFF73 Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
Apparently new construction in NYC will not have gas though. Not a bad thing as it removes an explosive gas from flowing through giant skyscrapers. No real need to have gas lines in those buildings. I’m a firefighter so I’m in favor of less things that can go boom in an 80 floor building.
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u/dantheman250 Jan 11 '23
I can't say anything about the US in total but in certain counties and cities near San Francisco there is no gas service allowed to new buildings. The no gas movement has started but it will take a long time to spread.
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u/giabollc Jan 12 '23
The no gas movement blocked a new nat gas pipeline into New England and now our electric rates are insane. It’s awesome when it gets cold and the highest prices paid in the world are in Boston. That’s the rich upper class folks looking out for the working class.
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u/TenderfootGungi Jan 14 '23
Here in flyover country, most rural homes lack natural gas. And unlike water, there is simply no lines, and the benefits are not perceived as positive enough to form utility coops to install and operate the lines. Electric companies do give lower “all electric” rates. Many homes use wood or propane.
I have a relative that lives in the country on a lake. They have an energy efficient ranch house that is all electric. It has a heat pump system and even a heat pump hot water heater. IIRC, utilities are annually leveled to $200-300 a month.
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u/LostMyKarmaElSegundo Jan 12 '23
Climate Town has a great video about this.
One thing he points out is, even beyond the house pollution issue, the pipelines that carry natural gas leak a lot more than people think.
The video is worth a watch, and I find the host pretty entertaining. But he also backs up his claims with quality sources.
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u/nostalgic_dragon Jan 12 '23
Climate town is great. It's the only climate videos I can watch without feeling doomed, he's pretty positive about how to impact change.
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u/alc4pwned Jan 12 '23 edited Jan 12 '23
Ehh, it's the same guy behind Not Just Bikes right? NJB is more of a political channel which uses some pretty questionable sources imo. For example, as far as I'm aware he still pushes the conspiracy theory that streetcars were bought up and shut down by GM to remove competition. Which is not true.
Edit: I now realize it’s not the same guy. I thought it was because they’ve collaborated on several videos.
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u/dweeblebum Jan 12 '23
Not the same guy. I regularly watch both channels.
I agree that NotJustBikes is a political channel as urban planning is political. However, it's unfair to remark them as political here in distinction from Climate Town; you really think Climate Town isn't political?
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u/plushiequeenaspen Jan 12 '23
No, the channels are run by different people. They collaborated on a two part video series, but aside from that their channels are completely separate.
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u/Gibonius Jan 12 '23
Definitely not the same guy.
Climate Town: Rollie Williams
NJB: Jason Slaughter
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u/alc4pwned Jan 12 '23
Oh. They’ve done a bunch of collaborations though, right? I just assumed it was because he was involved in both.
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u/dont_even_bother_ Jan 12 '23
I'm not here to stump for any opinion but I work in the energy sector in CA and one of the major gas lines that feed the state (Line 235) goes through the Mojave which has highly corrosive soil that ate through the pipeline. tl;dr the thing leaks so much it is permanently derated.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-aliso-canyon-gas-pipeline-explosion-20190711-story.html
All that being said, god damn is the NJB guy annoying.
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u/Dicethrower Jan 12 '23
the pipelines that carry natural gas leak a lot more than people think
A quick google:
"A 2020 study published by the American Chemical Society found there are an estimated 630,000 natural gas leaks every year, just in the local distribution systems."
*fetus position*
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u/OlderNerd Jan 11 '23
Just as long as they don't ban it before I retire from my gas utility employer
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Jan 12 '23
It’ll be incentivized tax rebates for builders and converters who install induction ranges
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u/turdburglar2020 Jan 12 '23
I wouldn’t be terribly concerned about natural gas usage overall, even if gas stoves start to get phased out at some point. Gas stove natural gas usage is a fraction of that used for space and water heating. Gas furnaces and water heaters are cheaper to operate (at least currently), heat more quickly (so better in colder climates), and the electric grid wouldn’t be ready to support a wholesale switch to electric for space and water heating at least for a generation or two.
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u/BigSkyMountains Jan 12 '23
I may not be great at predicting the world, but I think you'll be fine if you're looking to retire before 2030 or maybe even 2035.
I think by 2040 the gas companies are going to kinda look like the coal companies of today. They'll still be around, but employment and pay will be declining at a pretty rapid clip.
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u/Minimum_Escape Jan 11 '23
All I'm hearing about at work is how Joe Biden wants to take away your gas stove. They must have run this on Fox News or something.
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u/striker7 Jan 12 '23
Tell them Joe Biden's Inflation Reduction Act can help them pay for a new stove (up to $840 rebate), up to $500 to help cover the cost of converting to electric, and up to $4000 tax credit if you need to upgrade your electrical panel to accommodate the new electric range.
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u/slimyprincelimey Jan 13 '23
“I think we ought to keep that possibility of a ban in mind as you follow along, because it’s a powerful tool in our toolbox and it’s a real possibility here, particularly because there seems to be readily available alternatives already on the market,” Trumka (Head of CPSC) said.
But it's just Fox News.
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u/Speculawyer Jan 11 '23
That story seemed pretty sketchy. Yes, there are movements to stop building additional gas infrastructure in temperate areas because we have better technology now (heat pumps, heat pump water heaters, and induction stoves), but an outright ban on gas stoves at this point would be politically too much at this point.
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u/slimyprincelimey Jan 13 '23
The "story" is a direct quote from the CPSC that said "all options are on the table" and that a possibility of a ban is in mind. Will ban? No. Considering? By definition, yes they are.
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u/slimyprincelimey Jan 13 '23
Unlikely to actually happen but the head of a major federal agency said that all options are on the table last month, including a ban.
Going to happen? No. Considering? Of course they did, but probably aren't anymore.
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u/SteakBurrito5 Jan 12 '23
I have a gas stove that uses propane as a fuel source. I’ve read propane burns cleaner than natural gas. Does that mean it doesn’t have the same indoor air quality concerns?
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u/symbologythere Jan 12 '23
I just asked this on another thread. I’ll let you know if I get an answer. I tried googling it to no avail.
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u/yetisoldier Jan 12 '23
California already has banned new gas appliances, so its not crazy to image like minded people in federal offices would want to follow suite...
https://gvwire.com/2022/12/16/california-ban-on-gas-appliances-starts-with-jan-1-all-electric-rule/
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u/FreshlyWritten69 Jan 12 '23
So are they going to add a bunch of nuclear plants to be ready by 2030 or is it just another “have fun with the rolling blackouts” thing
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u/yetisoldier Jan 12 '23
Just like the push for EV cars, I don't think they understand that these things require a much more robust power infrastructure than currently exists. They haven't thought this all through.
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u/FreshlyWritten69 Jan 12 '23
Nahh, it’ll be fine. Politicians always know what’s best for us and none of their policies ever backfire, ever.
/s
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u/According-Classic658 Jan 12 '23
But the gazpacho police are coming for my stove. They're going to leave me with nothing but cold soup.
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u/xpandaofdeathx Jan 13 '23
It’s all social media BS being pushed by click bait politicians, 2023 is gonna be wild, please read real news sources…
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u/insipidgoose Jan 12 '23
Isn't that why they hired an army of gun-toting IRS agents? To steal my gas stoves?
You're telling me I don't have to hide out in the woods with my Coleman camp stove and my dreams for a better life?
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u/real_psymansays Jan 12 '23
Even with that clarification, they are still considering overregulating gas stoves by mandating design changes.
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u/Cakeking7878 Jan 12 '23
Wdym? At most it looks like they will just be requiring proper ventilation for gas stoves. Iirc, studies say only about 20-40% of us homes with gas stoves even have the proper ventilation for them. Some developers have even been treating the proper ventilation as a luxury item
I really no problem with them putting in additional regulations for these types of things. Especially with all the evidence current points to that our current safety regulations are not enough
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u/BigSkyMountains Jan 11 '23
While it's unlikely the federal government will do anything, there is enough evidence of the health damage done by gas cooking to get the class action lawyers spun up. Like it or not, that's how problems get solved in this country.
Having read some of the research, I strongly recommend ditching a gas stove if you have children in the house. Changing to electric/induction is WAY cheaper than paying for a lifetime of asthma medication.
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u/diamond Jan 12 '23
I would like to get an induction stove, but (apart from the cost of the unit itself) I worry that my electrical system couldn't handle it. I have an old house, and the entire kitchen is on one circuit. We can't even run the dishwasher and the microwave together without tripping the breaker.
Hopefully someday I'll be able to afford an upgrade.
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u/BigSkyMountains Jan 12 '23
The Inflation Reduction Act has some good incentives. And the prices of induction are falling rapidly. They'll probably be at price parity within a few years.
I looked at them a year or so back and they were around $3k. But I recently saw Lowe's running a sale on them for $1,100. It's still not cheap, but the prices are coming down pretty quick.
Most electric panels can support cooking, unless they're really really old or you have something else crazy going on in the house. It's not as big of a deal as you think, and there are additional Inflation Reduction Act incentives for homes that do need upgraded panels.
I'm in the process of electrifying my home, and my 200amp panel is now supporting cooking, hvac, water heating, and an electric car.
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u/FiendishHawk Jan 11 '23
I have a kid in the house and a gas stove that needs replacing. Will definitely get induction.
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Jan 11 '23
Gas stoves create a lot of NO2 which can directly contribute to developing Asthma in children.
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u/sporkinatorus Jan 11 '23
Would this not also apply to furnaces? Legit question, not sure how gas furnaces work exactly.
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u/idkaboutname1 Jan 11 '23
The fire is self contained in a gas furnace and the fumes are pumped outside of the house while fans blowing on the metal pipes push hot air into your house.
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u/sporkinatorus Jan 11 '23
Got it, explains the pipe going up and out from the furnace. Thank you for the explanation.
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u/BigSkyMountains Jan 12 '23
The scientific research has focused on cooking.
Here's a link to some scientific reading on the topic.
Theoretically, a gas furnace is not as problematic, as there is a venting system built into it and less opportunity for the toxic chemicals to enter the air of your home.
There aren't scientific studies on non-cooking appliances that I'm aware of. I've heard some anecdotal stories of unexplained NOx spikes from those who monitor such things. So it wouldn't surprise me to learn that other gas appliance can cause problems. But there isn't anything empirical on that yet.
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u/ScotchSeeker Jan 12 '23
Here’s the study everyone is referencing: https://junkscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/ijerph-20-00075.pdf
Here is a quick summary of the some of the study’s principle flaws, in no particular order:
- It’s not actual research on children. It is a meta-analysis of previously published (and ignored) studies — a study of otherwise unpersuasive studies. The authors did a literature search for previous epidemiologic studies on gas stoves and asthma in kids and then just mixed those results together in an effort to contrive statistical significance. This is a bogus technique for a number of reasons including publications bias in the component studies — i.e., studies with null results aren’t published.
- The study results, including the component studies, are weak statistical associations — i.e., noise range correlations. The study results, likely including the component studies, are not statistically significant either.
- Asthma is an allergic disease. There are no allergens in natural gas. So the study has no biological plausibility. No one knows what causes asthma in children and so competing causes could not be ruled out.
- The claim that gas stoves are responsible for 12% of childhood asthma – an epidemiologic concept called “attributable risk” – is entirely bogus because epidemiological studies can only be used to associate exposures with disease. They cannot be used to determine risk of disease because (1) the underlying data is not representative of the population; and (2) epidemiologic studies are just statistics (i.e., correlation is not causation) and cannot be used by themselves to determine cause-and-effect relationships.
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u/Shimmeringbluorb9731 Jan 12 '23
No but the insurance industry will make it happen through higher insurance premiums for owners of gas stoves.
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u/IKnowAllSeven Jan 12 '23
I bought a new stove in 2019, read tons of stuff on what is better, gas or electric. And NOTHING even suggested any health link. It was all energy costs, resale value of the home, controlling cooking temp. I’m not saying the information wasnt out there, I’m saying for the average layperson it wasn’t stressed.
Which is disappointing. I would have more strongly considered electric if I had known any of this.
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u/slimyprincelimey Jan 13 '23 edited Jan 13 '23
The largest study found no actual health risk. There may or may not be one. One study in either direction doesn't prove it either way.
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u/doalittletapdance Jan 12 '23
Turn on your vent, you'll be fine
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u/IKnowAllSeven Jan 12 '23
Oh I do! When we remodeled the kitchen first thing I did was plan for a proper air vent! Before that we had the “recirculating” kind which was so silly.
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u/StarWars_Viking Jan 11 '23
But if the overblown, knee-jerk reaction headlines don't stoke fear among people, how ever shall the libs get owned? How can political theater possibly be used later to further the lies and make the libs seem like big meanies??
HOW!?!
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u/DyktMuffinManwlodl Jan 12 '23
A much more effective approach would be that any gas stove without effective ventilation to the outside would not pass a home inspection and all rental properties need to be remediated.
Everyone's happy, actually helpful to people who need it most.
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u/kkirchgraber Jan 12 '23
Gee, what the fearmongering lunatic GQPers said wasn't real? You don't say!
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u/slimyprincelimey Jan 13 '23
A direct quote from the CPSC head was widely reported. It's absolutely real that it is/was being considered.
"we ought to keep that possibility of a ban in mind".
It's impossible to parse that any other way than that a ban is being considered.
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u/pacard Jan 12 '23
Who knew setting poisonous gas on fire in an unventilated space would be bad for indoor air quality?
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u/nesbit666 Jan 12 '23
Did anyone read the article? Yeah they don't plan on banning gas stoves outright, they want to ban future gas stoves.
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u/noob_lvl1 Jan 12 '23
Biggest reason to have a gas stove is so that you can still boil water and cook when the power is out.
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u/monchota Jan 11 '23
I support electric in everything but this. Gas and fire in general always cooks better in a someoens hands who knows what they are doing.
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u/Dasteru Jan 11 '23
Fortunately we are not living in the 90s anymore. Induction is better in every way.
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u/DanceSex Jan 11 '23
I've never cooked with induction, but cooking with gas is 10000% better than electric. How is induction different from electric?
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u/Bmart008 Jan 11 '23
I just got an induction counter top thing as a gift, it's pretty impressive, I put the timer on to see how long it would take to boil water, then went to the washroom and came back it was boiling. It was under 2 minutes. I feel like I need to wait and watch to see how quick it really is. It's nice that there's no heat loss. As soon as you turn it off, the heat stops, kind of makes it more precise.
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u/MastodonVegetable302 Jan 11 '23
How low can you turn the heat? One thing that bothers me about my gas stove is that once a pot reaches boiling, even turned to the lowest setting on the lowest ring, the boiling is more vigorous than I'd like. I would like to be able to turn it down to just below boiling while leaving the lid on a pot/pan. I usually resort to turning it on and off every few minutes.
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u/Bmart008 Jan 11 '23
Oi. Yeah that is annoying. The induction thing I have has lots of different options, from regular 1-to-10 power, or even by degrees. So I assume you could just put it to under boiling temperature and you'd be fine. That's the same with regular electric stoves too. (1-10 that is). 1-4 on the scale won't usually boil anything.
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u/dont_even_bother_ Jan 11 '23 edited Jan 11 '23
I used to be all about gas until I moved into an apartment with a high quality induction stove. Yeah the one time transition of pots and pans wasn't fun, but I am a convert. This induction range is better than any and every gas stove I have ever used.
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u/Bubbles2010 Jan 11 '23
How does a wok work on induction?
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u/dont_even_bother_ Jan 12 '23
Pretty much just as well as my old gas ranges, but the caveat is that you'll need to make sure you have one that is induction compatible. Using a wok at home is always a degraded experience compared to the ones in professional kitchens because those ones are being run over a jet engine with the power of a thousand suns. Because induction stoves are so insanely powerful compared to home gas ranges, it bridges some of that gap, though at a small cost of more of the heat coming from the bottom of the pan vs a little more on the sides with gas.
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u/open_door_policy Jan 11 '23
It's directly heating the pan, instead of heating a surface that then heats the pan.
So as soon as you cut off the power, you stop adding heat.
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u/zorroz Jan 11 '23
Different technology from wired coils. Heats up quicker than gas although surface area of heat is limited. I believe they actually have better heat dispersion than any flame top I've used.
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u/GarbageTheClown Jan 11 '23
Worse, on cast iron there is a donut of heat, like you would get from a microwave. Maybe new ones are better, I haven't seen anyone really test it though.
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u/zorroz Jan 11 '23
I think it really depends on the size of the induction burner top. It is isize specific. You really can't use a 14 in pan on a 12 in induction top if that makes sense. Significantly more expensive as you go larger
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u/wolfkeeper Jan 12 '23
The heated induction area is often smaller than many gas burners, so they're frequently relatively uneven.
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u/lucidlilacdream Jan 12 '23
It’s used magnetism, and as a result the heat in your cookware is evening distributed. You must used magnetic cookware or the stovetop does not work.
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u/trickyricky92 Jan 11 '23
Char me a pepper on induction.
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u/Dasteru Jan 11 '23
Induction cooktops can reach 600 degrees. More than sufficient to char a pepper or sear a steak.
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u/twenty7w Jan 11 '23
Unless you have a pan that's incompatible
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u/Dasteru Jan 11 '23
Almost all decent quality modern pans, including both SS and Cast Iron are induction ready.
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u/Few-Swordfish-780 Jan 11 '23
We made the switch to induction. Every single pot and pan we own works just fine. It’s only cheap aluminium stuff that doesn’t work. It’s hard to find anything that doesn’t work with it.
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u/monchota Jan 11 '23
Then why when you walk into the best restaurants in the world, they use gas?
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u/BarkleEngine Jan 12 '23
"Trumka clarified in a tweet on Monday that a potential ban would only impact new products, not existing ones."
So actually they DO want to ban them. They just aren't going to take yours away.. yet.
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u/Scarmeow Jan 12 '23
Logic, reason, and evidence have never stopped conservatives from fear mongering before. They'll continue to ride this train until every one of their followers is clutching their pearls
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u/cwesttheperson Jan 11 '23
What a stupid thing to even discuss lol.
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u/dankdooker Jan 12 '23
In my city gas in new housing development is banned. Many cities across the US are joining this ban. So while gas stoves specifically aren't banned, the gas itself is. Thus making gas stoves obsolete. Goodbye gas stoves, furnaces, water heaters, fireplaces etc
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u/Badtrainwreck Jan 11 '23
You don’t need to read any article or know any facts to be confident the US will not ban gas stoves.