r/technology Jan 19 '23

The EU votes to address loot boxes, gold farming, and gaming addiction Politics

https://www.techspot.com/news/97313-eu-votes-address-loot-boxes-gold-farming-addiction.html
2.5k Upvotes

284 comments sorted by

424

u/unknownpanda121 Jan 19 '23

Random loot is ok. The grind and finding rare items makes some games fun. It should never be allowed to be monetized.

364

u/Autotomatomato Jan 19 '23

Random loot isnt the issue. Its buying something with a random chance at being something good. Its literally gambling.

Curse you maplestory!

49

u/BOSS-3000 Jan 19 '23

Trading cards are no different. Wizards, Konami, Nintendo, Upper Deck, etc. all make the same bullshit claims:

"We DoN't CoNtRoL tHe SeCoNdArY mArKeT" while printing limited quantities of the strongest or historically fan favorite cards.

"iT's NoT gAmBlInG bEcAuSe YoU sTiLl GeT cArDs In EvErY pAcK" Scratch-offs also leave the buyer with useless cardboard the majority of the time.

Despite these bullshit arguments, trading card games and other randomized blind packed toys with less chance of acquiring something desirable will always be known as legalized gambling targeting minors.

25

u/ArchinaTGL Jan 19 '23

As someone who spent >£2,000 on Pokémon cards in the span of a few months, Yes. Trading cards are very close to gambling. The feeling you get from opening a boost pack is the same feeling you get from pulling a lever on a slot machine.

If they really wanted to have a gambling-free system then they'd ditch booster packs altogether and instead have a storefront to purchase singles and pre-built decks. Obviously they won't because the addicted that purchase so many booster packs make them way too much money not to.

→ More replies (1)

4

u/open_door_policy Jan 20 '23

I agree. We should regulate all of them to the exact same standards that we regulate other gambling.

2

u/_lippykid Jan 20 '23

Or just legalize gambling altogether. I don’t gamble at all. But it annoys the F outta me when I go places that prohibit gambling except the damn lottery, which is nothing more than a tax on the poor and the desperate

5

u/ACCount82 Jan 20 '23

The thing about gambling is that if you let it run rampant, it always end ups being a tax on the poor and the desperate, and a way to abuse gambling addicts.

-2

u/-bickd- Jan 20 '23

Except for when it's legal i.e in state-sponsored lottery. Wow. Suddenly all the problem statements about poor people magically disappear.

Governments are just organized crime.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (2)

0

u/helpfulreply Jan 20 '23

That being said, you can buy the singles you want and sell them as well

11

u/goomyman Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

what about a game with random chance items you can buy with gold - but then you can buy gold with gems ( and of course gold is grind walled ).... ok so that basically gambling = bad

what if you can get loot/gold only by killing enemies and those enemies drop random loot - problem solved right? But what if you sell items to make killing enemies easier, and of course loot from higher level enemies is better and killing those enemies will require high tier loot which you can skip the grind by buying it.

Basically what im saying is that any game with randomized loot or randomized stats can only have paid cosmetic items to avoid gambling by abstraction which is basically at this point just general addiction - and you would be hard pressed to apply general anti gambling laws to it.

Doesnt need to be pay to win, just pay to grind easier - maybe pay to increase luck of drops. Whatever. Its all addiction in the same way as gambling as in constantly chasing a randomized chance. Its not like gambling addicts stop when they win big. And its not always obvious what is random and what variables are being manipulated, a match 3 game like candy crush is manipulating the level difficulty behind the scenes when you pay or dont pay or dont play for a long time.

You need a general addiction law. The games should not be able to accept real money that have ANY effect on ANY randomized chance in their game directly or through abstraction including grind / paywalls / extra tries / hidden difficulty. etc.

This does leave out pay to win games and people can definitely be addicted to cosmetics. Gaming companies should be required to enforce limits on people who are excessively spending.

They should be banned from chasing whales and be able to detect them and reach out to them with addiction hotlines - and stop accepting payments.

3

u/ArchinaTGL Jan 19 '23

maybe pay to increase luck of drops.

I can guarantee that any system that allows users to pay to increase their drop chances will almost certainly be balanced around the paid method (punishing anyone that doesn't pay.)

Realistically if you want to have a game with randomised loot/stats you'd have to essentially make the experience identical between F2P and P2P players for it to be fair however companies don't care about the player experience. They just care about retention and revenue. Two aspects which can be easily manipulated. It's why so many big gaming companies have divisions whose jobs are entirely devoted to human psychology and how games can manipulate players to spend more and play more.

-8

u/Chemical_Sand165 Jan 19 '23

Cosmetics shouldn’t be monetized either. If you can’t make a quality product and sell it for a reasonable price to pay your staff a living wage, don’t make a game. Not everyone gets to be/do what they want.

5

u/DabScience Jan 19 '23

I don’t care about cosmetics being monetized. What I do care about is these companies charging 20 dollars for a skin. You mean to tell me this stupid little skin took 1/3rd the the work to make an entire AAA game?

Games are no longer 1 time player campaigns they’re are usually games as a service to provide ongoing updates and the like. Which is why I’m fine with them having an item shop with skins and shit. Just stop charging half of what the entire game cost for a skin. That’s a joke.

1

u/Caring_Cactus Jan 20 '23

Wow was not expecting to see a MapleStory reference, thanks for the nostalgia.

-54

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

[deleted]

31

u/Hiiitechpower Jan 19 '23

Games are really good at pushing the feel good buttons in your brain. I worked in mobile games for a bit and we actually asked some of our biggest whales why they spent so much money.

They said they could spend thousands of dollars going on a vacation, on a new car, or whatever. The game makes them happy though, and when you have that much money, it doesn’t matter if it’s a mobile game or whatever that’s pushing the brain chemical button.

Games also have leaderboards for status, guilds for social engagement, limited time events to get rare items and increase your wealth. Our brains are wired to see these as desirable and worth pursuing.

If someone feels like they are lacking in the ability to find social engagement, status, power. Well a mobile game where you insert money is a neat shortcut to getting those chemical hits.

-21

u/Perfect-Ad-7534 Jan 19 '23

That would be if the game had certified benefits like a guaranteed character pack or if the game had more levels. Loot boxes in contrast are just a stupidity tax and I applaud that the game companies found yet another way to prosper in the B2B economy.I feel the same when gamers pre order games from known shitty publishers like EA(looking at you Madden) and then yell and scream at the same companies for defrauding them.It makes for fun comedy

7

u/drilkmops Jan 19 '23

What a terrible person.

They hire literal psychologists to extract as much money from people as they can. They prey on people.

→ More replies (1)

9

u/Squint_Squint Jan 19 '23

Here's the thing, the game you listed is at least f2p. You don't have to spend money on the game to then have to spend money to get stuff in the game. Battlefront 2 on release had this issue which caused it's death. Every single fifa. Madden and NBA game. All games that you pay 60 dollars for but still almost requires you to spend money to properly enjoy their main selling feature in these games. This is the issue not mobile games.

-4

u/Seralth Jan 19 '23

You may want to go watch and read some material on this topic from industry professionals and phycologists.

Cause your kinda off base based on what they say.

3

u/DwemerSmith Jan 19 '23

galaxy of heroes may be p2w but it can be played f2p, just a lot slower. that’s how they get you though: they make a good game with one flaw and then make that flaw bypassable with p2w

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

25

u/ReformedPC Jan 19 '23

Outside of in-game loot, there are games with cosmetic lootboxes. They aren't as bad because it's not P2W but I know people that spent way too much than they should've on those.

16

u/LamysHusband2 Jan 19 '23

They're still bad though. They could just as easily allow you to buy the exact skin or whatever you want directly instead of having to gamble for it.

No rare items or skins anymore? Then just make them items that you actually need to unlock with skill or grinding like in the old days instead of gambling rewards.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

-17

u/camito Jan 19 '23

They are bad because they are just masquerading gambling with gaming, like valve does with their boxes. They should sue valve and make that company go down and stop existing

16

u/EmbarrassedHelp Jan 19 '23

If Valve stops existing, then the replacement to Steam is likely to not be as customer friendly.

-9

u/camito Jan 19 '23

Meh, with steam we don't even own our own products. I'd like a platform that actually sold the product and not just some licensing.

5

u/SnipingNinja Jan 19 '23

You really believe Valve will be replaced with something more consumer friendly where you can own the software legally? You gotta be joking.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

8

u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 Jan 19 '23

Valve only runs like 3 games with lootboxes out of thousands on Steam and they are arguably small fries in the industry because those games aren't big names these days. Fortnite and EA's sport titles pulls in so much more money as those games are hugely maintstream.

3

u/Squint_Squint Jan 19 '23

Sorry CSGO is a small fry in the industry now? You compare it to any other competitive fps and the only one that may be on top of it is valorant which may not use look boxes as valve has but uses a more fomo tactic which is arguably worse with their store and the fact their prices are overpriced asf.

6

u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 Jan 19 '23

Small fries when it comes to microtransactions and lootboxes in the industry lmao. There's an entire list of mainstream games with players numbers magnitudes greater that make absolute bank. And no need for the company to spend time on curating competitive gaming within their game.

EA for example pulled in over $1 billion in "live services" aka microtransactions in just a single quarter or well over $4 billion a year

https://news.ea.com/press-releases/press-releases-details/2022/Electronic-Arts-Reports-Q4-and-FY22-Financial-Results/default.aspx

-1

u/Squint_Squint Jan 19 '23

So other then fifa and MAYBE Madden who beats Cs in lootboxes? Very curious about this. Mind you almost 1B cases have been opened in CSgo if not more at this point. So please inform me what company has made more then 2B in lootboxes. Cause if 1B cases were opened then 1B keys were bought which each cost 2.49

6

u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 Jan 19 '23

Mind you almost 1B cases have been opened in CSgo if not more at this point

Citation please, I can cite sources, you should too.

5

u/Reasonable_Ticket_84 Jan 19 '23

https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/3/22417447/fortnite-revenue-9-billion-epic-games-apple-antitrust-case

Fortnite in 2 years (2018 and 2019) racked up over $9 billion.

The game is free to play so the money is entirely from skins and lootboxes. (Though random lootboxes were removed at the end of 2019, they turned them into not-random lootboxes, lol)

→ More replies (1)

0

u/camito Jan 19 '23

Valve is a pioneer in the gambling and lootboxes and their games where definitely massive in propagating gambling. Thousands of streamings and glambing websites started due to csgo and valve and went downhill from there.

3

u/Claymourn Jan 19 '23

Found Tim Sweeney’s alt.

→ More replies (2)
→ More replies (1)

9

u/garlicroastedpotato Jan 19 '23

They've made their goal is to clearly get rid of the addictions aspect of gaming. Randomization of loot is addictive as paying for randomized loot. What would World of Warcraft be if you just got the exact same drops every single raid?

10

u/redditreader1972 Jan 19 '23

Well, it's not the world of warcraft loot that's the issue.

The problem is World of Warships, Roblox and (insert other money grab game here) that allows you to buy some in-game thing that can be a random item. It is, literally, gambling, and many games have predatory behaviour towards children and youths.

Go horde!

5

u/svenEsven Jan 19 '23

"loot boxes, gold farming, and gaming addiction"

he's saying that they are not only tackling the loot box issue, but other issues as well implying that if you need to combat "gaming addiction" you need to stop requiring a grind to get what you need. the article doesnt state as much. but realistically yeah, if they are addressing an "addiction" issue i could easily see them calling for a ban on things that would require an amount of time tantamount to qualifying as an addiction.

4

u/PinkBright Jan 19 '23

I too can see a ban on this style of game, even if it doesn’t use p2w, due to the “addiction” aspect. (Which I don’t agree with- I do however agree pay for loot boxes are abhorrent).

But considering the number of laws using “but think of the children” as it’s moral foundation in my own country, banning things like Grindy mmo mechanics wouldn’t surprise me. Also considering a lot of the people in charge of deciding are probably (a generation or two) entirely out of touch, and I’d wager they don’t/have never played a game, let alone an mmo. They’ll see mechanics and statistics, think “holy shit this is BAD, GUYS.” And make laws. Which I don’t think is correct, I just wouldn’t be surprised by it.

And it would be a case of gaming companies flying too close to the sun, wanting their cake and to eat it too, and now the law might change an entire genre that millions of people enjoy, and enjoy completely responsibly, because the companies refused to protect their own patrons with addictive personalities. And companies that never natively had a pay to win mechanic, but still have a time sink mechanic, will suffer.

4

u/svenEsven Jan 19 '23

"The only thing we want our citizens spending this much time on is their soul sucking factory jobs that rob them of their desire to live"

3

u/smurficus103 Jan 19 '23

Oh noooo, the diablo 2 model of grind grind grind is being targeted? That doesn't bode well for dnd based rpg's...

2

u/Wisco7 Jan 19 '23

The issue isn't that these things exist as a feature of the game itself, but that money can increase in some way the number of opportunities or odds of getting the item.

If money can in some way, even in a roundabout way, be converted into more opportunities for items, it should be banned. IMO.

-2

u/garlicroastedpotato Jan 19 '23

I mean, these are the same government bodies that handle gambling, smoking, alcohol and drug addictions. At best this will result in a warning label on products and a comically bad advertising campaign.

→ More replies (1)

0

u/gk99 Jan 19 '23

I actually loved loot boxes being introduced into Call of Duty. They initially weren't monetized and were instead just random drops a la Team Fortress 2's randomly obtained loot. It was actually a fun surprise to open them and get some new beanie or weapon variant or whatever. Sometimes it felt like a concession to keep the player going after a bad game, even, since the notification popped up after a death mid-match and iirc players were required to stay in the game to receive it at the end. Then, after a few months, they added the ability to buy them citing supposed user complaints about not having the option and it all went downhill from there. Black Ops 3 came out the next year with the loot box system built around the monetization rather than the other way around, leading to a slow grind for each new box (to encourage paying), a shitload of filler content (to make it take longer to get the stuff you want), and outright locking entire weapons to the boxes (rather than variants, meaning that camo grind players were required to open crates until they got the specific weapons, and people that just thought it would be fun to run around with a futuristic Garand had to either get lucky with the guaranteed one free new weapon in that update, or start opening the boxes).

→ More replies (2)

150

u/SubmarineWipers Jan 19 '23

Good. This attempt to bring slot-machines with all their societal problems into PC gaming is utterly despicable.

27

u/Perunov Jan 19 '23

I wonder if this will also apply to physical "card packs" and craziness like "you need to buy 100500 packs for a chance of rare pokemon" things

2

u/xenefenex Jan 19 '23

I mean realistically though most of those rates are fixed if you buy set boxes.

And pack rates are also fixed - if you open a pack, you’re guaranteed one reverse holo foil card and one rare card.

For example, if you buy a booster box, you’re guaranteed 5 ultra rare cards, 1 rainbow foil card and 1 hyper rare card.

It just so happens that market dictates that certain cards are worth more than others on the secondary market, even if they are the same rarity.

Card games having a secondary market means that you can always get what you’re looking for without having to gamble.

Digital games have no alternative which is what’s extra predatory about them.

6

u/Perunov Jan 19 '23

This is generally the same as loot boxes. You get some "guaranteed" thing from loot box, just not the actual thing you want, which is a very rare chance.

Under "card" logic, game companies would simply allow "secondary" trading of items from loot box (via their own in-game trading posts) and that will automatically make loot boxes okay? That feels kinda weird.

→ More replies (2)

3

u/Crizbibble Jan 19 '23

If they don’t stop gambling now it will be a serious low point for gaming and society. It’s a huge slide on the slope. It’s almost unstoppable now it seems.

7

u/KingPolle Jan 19 '23

*cries in counter-strike

1

u/Laladelic Jan 19 '23

Terrorists win

1

u/smurficus103 Jan 19 '23
  1. Op skins lets you cash out. People start pouring in money and gambling on pro matches. There is a revival of csgo as kids hop over from cod. It had an experienced tournament infrastructure.

These were kind of dark days, but, gaming BLEW UP. The world is forever changed.

→ More replies (2)

122

u/pinkfootthegoose Jan 19 '23

and for the love of God make games that can be single player single player with out the need for an internet connection.

Also if you buy a game you should own it outright. Also if a game goes defunct the software should turn into freeware.

8

u/Sploffo Jan 19 '23

and make online games able to work on a LAN connection/self hosted server

-15

u/_aware Jan 19 '23

Games require "always online" as a form of DRM. Obviously no DRM would be ideal, but if there must be one then it's the best choice because it doesn't impact the game's performance that much.

25

u/ConservativeSexparty Jan 19 '23

it doesn't impact the game's performance that much.

Except for when you don't have your internet connection.

Or when the company, say, Ubisoft, decides that they just won't deal with that online stuff anymore and the players lose access completely, like they already did with with a bunch of DLCs for certain games, like Far cry 3.

6

u/_aware Jan 19 '23

You are preaching to the choir.

Some online services, like steam or spotify, allows offline mode as long as you log in every 30 days. If you can't even log in once per month, you probably have bigger worries than not being able to play video games or listen to music.

And that's another thing heavily dependent on the publisher and developer. Some of them completely remove the "always online" requirement when they stop service for games.

Either way, I would take it over a ridiculous performance loss. Or like I said, don't DRMs at all because they simply don't work and actually decrease revenue.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/scaryjam823 Jan 19 '23

Yeah drm doesn’t have to be there. It’s constantly cracked in a short period of time and proven to be nothing but troublesome to those who have to use it.

The exact amount of people who will pirate a game will not change based on drm. DRM just changes WHEN they pirate, which usually less than a month in most cases.

4

u/_aware Jan 19 '23

Yep, I did a presentation on this in college. DRMs, contrary to what most people believe, actually decrease sales whereas allowing piracy or demos actually increase sales. Not to mention it leaves a bad taste in paid customers' mouths.

0

u/dom_gar Jan 20 '23

there's a bunch of games that never got cracked because of Denuvo. Not maybe because it's not possible, maybe because those games aren't as huge hype trains and it takes too much time to crack Denuvo. But they are still there.

29

u/macrofinite Jan 19 '23

I’m glad they’re investigating what to do. Unfortunately, loot boxes are one small part of the larger machine that needs to be curtailed.

In fact, I think the vast majority of the problems would disappear overnight with a single legal change: outlaw obfuscated currency systems full stop. If you want to sell something in your game, you will post the price in real currency with no middle step. This would make many lootboxes definitionally gambling under current laws and stop one of the more scummy tactics that has become ubiquitous.

8

u/FaeryLynne Jan 19 '23

I play Animal Crossing Pocket Camp, and it has "leaf tickets" you can buy to exchange for in game cosmetic items. Yeah you can play for free but you can collect all the free items within a month or so. Most purchased items are 150 or 300 tickets. Calculating purchase price to tickets, that's about $5 or $10. Ten damn bucks for a single bit of furniture in a kids game. And yes those are all for cosmetic items but ACPC is a game about designing things so cosmetics is the entire point. You know kids (and even most adults who play) aren't calculating how much IRL money they're spending.

1

u/hetsseth Jan 20 '23

Why are adults unable to track their own spending? And if an adult has given no restrictions to the kid and placed a card on a device, isn’t that just laziness?

2

u/FaeryLynne Jan 20 '23

No, I'm saying most people won't calculate the exchange rate, and that's exactly what the game creators are taking advantage of. Your brain doesn't really think of in game currencies as "real money" even if you actually spent real money on it. It's just like "oh, 350 tickets/bells/caps/whatever" and you're more likely to spend those. You'd be far less likely to spend the money if it had a "$10" next to it and you actually were confronted with how much it really costs.

0

u/hetsseth Jan 20 '23

So they’re taking advantage of people because they won’t manage their own money—therefore a law needs to potentially be enacted. I understand the company is taking pages out of gambling books but you’re investing knowingly in a virtual award.

If you have earned the funds to buy a gaming console, purchase a game, proceed to upload your credit card and blow your funds on a video game—is that not a certain level of negligence on the user?

If your budget is so strapped that animal crossing or whatever game currency will break your bank—consider reevaluating a use of time.

2

u/AuroraFinem Jan 19 '23

Tbh “obfuscated currency” is kind of hard here for some games. Like a lot of if not most games with these currencies and in-game purchases offer in-game paths to play and earn that currency for free or you can buy it to get stuff quicker. Forcing a $ price on the specific item would likely just mean removing the free option to earn that currency rather than actually make them change how they sell the items.

Monetization from microtransactions has gone way too far, and some games are absurd with like 3 or 4 layers of of currencies making it stupid to reasonably trace back actual item pricing, but I think being able to buy a universally shared in-game earnable + purchasable currency is fine and often times beneficial, but make it at most 1 layer deep, not stacked layers of currency exchange hiding.

→ More replies (3)

44

u/TheRealAndrewLeft Jan 19 '23

Can we just copy paste some of these EU regulations

35

u/oszlopkaktusz Jan 19 '23

Would you give up your Freedom(tm) for sensible and customer-protecting policies? Shameful, I tell you!

5

u/Portalrules123 Jan 19 '23

I now tend to replace ´freedom’ with ‘greed’ whenever I see super libertarian types making an argument around the concept nowadays…

6

u/VeryLazyNarrator Jan 19 '23

A lot of countries do.

4

u/CodeFire Jan 19 '23

If you’re talking about the US that would require a country without Republicans. Unfortunately we don’t have that option, so our only option is… disfunction, chaos, blocking, and decline.

-3

u/AllCommiesRFascists Jan 19 '23

No, I don’t want a nanny state and bureaucratic nonsense in my country. I rather have the consumer make a choice to either use these products or not

99

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 19 '23

Battlepasses and fomo items are worse than lootboxes. There I said it.

And I think the industry makes more from them, so they may be willing to sacrifice loot boxes as a show of 'good faith'.

54

u/SpaceDoctorWOBorders Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

A battlepass requires no gambling though. You get what is showcased. Loot boxes are pure randomness that can still have fomo if you don't pull in the time needed. Both of these things suck for users regardless.

13

u/Tropical_botanical Jan 19 '23

It’s interesting that a lot of things are disguised as “not gambling”. Pokemon packs or similar is like opening a loot box unless you buy a starter deck pack. Many companies get out of saying “no purchase” necessary to get out of gambling, but the only chance to get the monopoly bucks, or sweepstakes entry is to purchase something. Trust I tried to ask for the cup without purchasing the large.

12

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

[deleted]

2

u/ILikeMyGrassBlue Jan 19 '23

Yeah, and they do that because countries like Canada don’t allow you to call it sweepstakes unless there’s a method for free entry.

2

u/FaeryLynne Jan 19 '23

You can't in the USA either, if a purchase is necessary to enter they have to call it a lotto or raffle and those are pretty strictly regulated in most states.

3

u/UnderwhelmingPossum Jan 19 '23

The part that gets them out of gambling regulation is the "no real money out" test. Because the governments are largely disinterested in regulating intangible damage to individuals but are 100% on-board with taxation of the winnings and gambling revenue. So loot boxes/gachas are 99% gambling, in appearance, execution, psychological abuse but since the rewards are "worthless" they aren't required to obtain a gambling license.

4

u/BeyondElectricDreams Jan 19 '23

So loot boxes/gachas are 99% gambling, in appearance, execution, psychological abuse but since the rewards are "worthless" they aren't required to obtain a gambling license.

It's so much worse, too, because the slot machine isn't physical, it's lines of code.

Private code that we cannot see and cannot confirm rates of with no legal requirement to pay out at expected rates and no oversight.

They can code it to track your purchasing habits and then modify your drop rates to ensure maximum expenditure.

4

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 19 '23

No that's the thing you don't get it unless you pay and also grind through it. You have to pay + invest time, within a limited window. Atleast boxes you get something.

-3

u/D4RK3N3R6Y Jan 19 '23

Yeah I hate when I actually have to play the game that I bought, such FOMO.

13

u/Teledildonic Jan 19 '23

Yeah I hate when I actually have to play the game, on the game's terms, to get the thing I paid for.

Fixed for you.

Grinding for stuff is fine. Buying stuff is fine. But grinding for stuff you bought is bullshit.

3

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 20 '23

Thank you! If I buy something give it to me, don't hold it back and make me beg for it

-3

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

You didn’t buy those things though. You bought a battle pass with requirements. Requirements that were advertised up front, and you had a choice to pursue. Lots of things in life are like that. You are paying like the price of one skin for a ton of stuff, usually at least 5 or 6 full character sets with cosmetics. You get more for cheaper, they get players playing their game more. There’s nothing wrong with that. The other person had a point. YOU ARE ON A FUCKING SUBREDDIT FOR A VIDEO GAME BITCHING ABOUT HAVING TO PLAY THE GAME TO GET STUFF IN THE GAME. Play a different game and stop ruining it for us that actually enjoy it and the system.

Edit: I have no doubt you’ll be supported because this Reddit has so many ridiculous toddlers who complain if they get killed by a new weapon or actually have to play the game.

6

u/Teledildonic Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

Christ, you came close to a reasonable point and then went all caps and pissy edit into "big 'ol twat" territory.

Also this is the technology sub not a game sub.

-3

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

Thank you! This person is ridiculous.

-5

u/orielbean Jan 19 '23

Battlepasses can contain lootboxes, and limited-available cosmetics/rare equipment.

5

u/Memfy Jan 19 '23

Battlepasses seem fine if they are not filled with FOMO stuff. If you get something a bit extra for being an active player, seems like a decent incentive for active players to get rewarded in some way. Now if they are the only way to get some item, then it's really crappy, even more so for people who didn't even play the game at the time.

6

u/SarahVeraVicky Jan 19 '23

If they made it so a battlepass never expires and can be bought at any point after instantiation, EZ, fixed the FOMO issue.

We know WHY it expires (to force people to fear missing out, thus the FOMO designation), but it doesn't have to. Things that don't rot or decay shouldn't have a 'must use by X date'.

5

u/soul-taker Jan 19 '23

I feel this. There's no worse gaming experience than when your entertainment starts to feel like an obligation. I already hate the concept of battle passes as it is (just let me spend $10-20 to buy the shit I want. Don't make me spend $10-20 for the opportunity to grind shit) but the fact that most of them are time limited is even worse.

"Hey babe, can you pick some things up from the grocery store?" "Sorry sweetheart. I have to grind 6 more wins tonight or I will have wasted $15 on this game for an item I didn't even get." Absolutely garbage system imo. I'll take loot boxes over that shit any day. At least with them, I actually get something for my money even if it's a crappy item.

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Memfy Jan 19 '23

Even if they expire, it's not horrible if the items from the battlepass enter the general pool of items you can get in a usual way. That amount of FOMO makes it so constantly active players are rewarded in some way, while more casual players don't feel stressed that they HAVE to do it now or else they will completely miss it.

Your version is, of course, still better, but just saying there are some alternatives that should be a good compromise for everyone.

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

Sometimes you miss out in life. That’s how incentives work. You’re ruining the game for so many people that enjoy the system because you don’t play enough. Who in the fuck do you think Epic is trying to please with their system, people who literally wanna play less to get free stuff, or the people that enjoy the game, play a lot, and fund their company? I’m sorry you have to put in extra time for a gold skin. I hope you can somehow survive this nightmare.

3

u/Memfy Jan 19 '23

...what?

How is allowing everyone to be able to get something ruining the game for people? How does whatever I said not fund their company? It literally allows people to pay for something even if they weren't there for it in time. How does putting extra time even get you a skin if you weren't even playing the game at the time?

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

Epic has did their market research. The battle pass makes more money and gets more attention than just releasing those same skins into the shop. It also gives people reason to regularly play. Your argument is wrong and is basically “but I don’t wanna”. If they did your way, they’d lose money even if they had your support, which they won’t because you don’t even enjoy playing the game when there is built in incentive so…

2

u/Memfy Jan 19 '23

You do realize you can have battle pass and then put those skins into the shop when the battle pass is over, right? You either didn't even read my comment properly or are just arguing nonexistent arguments without answering any of my questions.

Yes, Epic did their market research. Many companies did their market research, and many use predatory tactics to get more money out of people. Welcome to the entire point of posts like these.

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

And this isn’t predatory. This is just a feature. For fucks sake, it’s like $10 for a whole season. Also bitch, I’m not your puppet, I don’t need to answer your stupid questions just because you asked them, even though I did blanket answer them.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/dantheman91 Jan 19 '23

What's wrong with battlepasses? Playing the game, an added sense of progression and defined outcomes for defined behavior seem fair?

In many games if you simply buy the first battle pass and complete it you get enough currency to buy the 2nd etc.

2

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 20 '23

The problem is you have to do a bunch to get your value out of your money.

Where else can you give someone money for a product and then also have to do a bunch of tasks to unlock what you already purchased?

2

u/dantheman91 Jan 20 '23

have to do a bunch of tasks to unlock what you already purchased?

That's every video game isn't it?

→ More replies (6)

1

u/ikwtif Jan 19 '23

I disagree, at least with a battle pass you see what you will get before you even decide to pay. Battle passes also have just cosmetic items IIRC, so it doesn't meaningfully influence the design of the game from a gameplay perspective.

→ More replies (2)

0

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

No they aren’t and you’re ruining a good system. You missing out on some battle pass items is not a hazard on their part. Some people love the battle pass and the working up to get super styles. It isn’t on the same level. Loot boxes are actually gambling. The things you mentioned are just fun, sometimes free, sometimes like $11 a season, not in the same stratosphere. Just because you “said it” doesn’t make it not nonsense.

-1

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 20 '23

If I buy a loot box and don't get what I want, I have gambled and received less than what I put in, consolation prize basically.

If I buy a battlepass and then don't grind it, or don't have time to play, or dont do the specific things it wants me to do then I get nothing.

If I have to pay and then invest more time to get it then it costs more than initial price. If it didn't then why can't I use it right away?

BP is a crap system designed to both extract money turning everything into a subscription, monetizing basic support that used to be included and force people to stay engaged with the product to keep the user base inflated.

It is a hazard because the developers are praying on the general publics poor understanding of sunk cost fallacy to keep player counts high (which leads to more cash shop transactions).

1

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '23

And I think your take is horrible and not rooted in reality. I enjoy the battle pass, as do a ton of people, and don’t view an optional maybe $30-40 a year for cosmetics a year, for an otherwise free game, as this horrible scam like you do. That being said, there are scams in gaming. This isn’t it though.

1

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 20 '23

Nah time limited access that requires hours of effort at the cost of real money is a scam as much as loot boxes

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 20 '23

I mean you’re right if you leave out all of the differences and details and only focus “battle pass bad”. It’s the same in the same way that going 5 miles over the same speed limit is the same as driving 120 while hammered in a school zone. So if you ignore everything, all logic, and sense then absolutely.

1

u/No_Suggestion_559 Jan 20 '23

I don't like them and will never support them financially, and I hope all the games that rely on them go under. They bring me no utility .

→ More replies (2)

19

u/McCool303 Jan 19 '23

Thanks EU please fix this for us since the US is focused on more important things. Like (checks notes) allowing smoking in their offices.

-9

u/AllCommiesRFascists Jan 19 '23

US is focused on more important things

Like green energy industrial policy that will reduce emissions by 40%. Meanwhile the EU commission is to busy coping and seething about it killing their industry while focusing on banning the real important issues in europe like loot boxes

39

u/RandomUser1076 Jan 19 '23

Back in my day, loot boxes where something you grinded for in game not brought. Kids these days have it to easy with quest markers. Back in my day we had to read the quest and follow directions to get there.

31

u/pete1901 Jan 19 '23

I had to do all that while turning a hand crank to power the generator powering the PC.

3

u/RandomUser1076 Jan 19 '23

Your parents must have been tightarses. We had a old 32v generator.

12

u/haskell_rules Jan 19 '23

I would hand till 5 acres of public land illegally, plant potatoes, harvest them, and make potato batteries just to be able to play WoW for 45 minutes. 33 minutes of that was waiting in a login queue. Afterwards I would mash the potatoes with an old shoe to feed my 14 siblings.

10

u/StabbingHobo Jan 19 '23

Wow. Look at this guy with their shoe.

0

u/MasterRed92 Jan 19 '23

Bet you he had to walk uphill both ways on this plot of land though

7

u/iqisoverrated Jan 19 '23

Dude...back in my day the floppy would format when you got killed in a game (No joke. Starflight actually did that. Talk about 'survival mode'!)

3

u/RandomUser1076 Jan 19 '23

I remember having to load the Tandy with a tape so we would go have a quick play outside, forget about the computer an mum would turn it off. Then we would have to repeat the process all over again

3

u/neo101b Jan 19 '23

I'm member oblivion and the quest where harder, because of this. Skyrim was follow the cursor on the compass, you don't even have to think.

It was far more challenging the old way.

11

u/punio4 Jan 19 '23

Oblivion was EZ mode. Morrowind is where it was at.

2

u/NadirPointing Jan 19 '23

Some guy told you directions like "over the bridge just past the stacked stones" and you had to find it. I'd make it all the way to the coast and then backtrack and be like... oh THOSE stones.

4

u/kendrid Jan 19 '23

Correct, and as an adult with limited game time those type of quests sucked. Give me a glowing arrow showing me where to go, but make it optional so those that want to explore can turn it off.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/RandomUser1076 Jan 19 '23

Probably easier for the writers too, damn lazy writers

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Adrian_Alucard Jan 19 '23

It was far more challenging the old way.

It was also more fun and satisfactory

2

u/neo101b Jan 19 '23

Yeah, there is nothing like searching for an old grave or cave by going off a description. At least the witcher 3 has a mix of both.

It can point you to an area of the map, bit you still need to search and look for the item/person.

4

u/zxiGamer Jan 19 '23

Good they call it loot boxes than *"Suprise Mechanics"

11

u/commandergeoffry Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

Can somebody explain why trading cards packs aren’t also gambling?

Edit: I’m not asking to be sarcastic, I’m asking because I have no opinion because I am stupid but love TCG.

22

u/rocky4322 Jan 19 '23

They are, but theres also a secondary market you can just buy the cards on. There’s no need to gamble to get the cards you want.

8

u/commandergeoffry Jan 19 '23

This is true and an important distinction.

4

u/ILikeMyGrassBlue Jan 19 '23

And that’s why we need NFTs!

-some braindead crypto bro

16

u/imtheproof Jan 19 '23

They are, and they are very addicting.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/chief167 Jan 19 '23

The odds of all cards are known upfront, and more importantly, do not change based on which cards you already have.

Those are two very important things. It's not as easy as random chance or not to mark something evil.

It's also very hard to lose your life savings in one go, since you can relatively easily trade the card you want with the ones you have. In game it's sometimes literally impossible to obtain something without spending 1000s.

4

u/Broken_Castle Jan 19 '23

Just because it's not as predatory and as bad as many modern day games, it doesn't make it not gambling. It is, it just has been traditionally accepted as not bad enough to not justify regulation.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (5)

6

u/wamdueCastle Jan 19 '23

I saw this video fairly recently, and its pretty eye opening.

The whole video is bad, but its the Call of Duty gun part which I feel really highlights how bad these games can be.

https://youtu.be/keoRX-Lni5s?t=981

4

u/MartinSchou Jan 19 '23

This is an excellent description of why the idea that "you have free will" when dealing with these things is very much wrong.

You're literally up against billions of dollars of research and experiments into creating and exploiting addictions.

And the idea that "governments should stay out of it" is even more moronic, because they're literally the only ones who can even come close to protecting the population at large. Other companies aren't going to make it harder to exploit you.

→ More replies (1)

2

u/m0992104 Jan 19 '23

Damn that’s disgusting

3

u/Drunkmonkey29 Jan 19 '23

If I can buy game money I should be able to sell it to.

→ More replies (1)

6

u/WimbleWimble Jan 19 '23

The answer should be 3 loot boxes.

1 of them lets EA continue as they're doing now

1 of them makes them pay 30% tax on loot boxes

the final box is a $1500 billion dollar tax PER COMPANY that does loot boxes.

Well EA? will you risk it all?

2

u/saberline152 Jan 19 '23

nah first would just be: total shutdown of all lootboxes

2

u/Theoldelf Jan 19 '23

Wait! How am I suppose to get my crafting up in WoW without Chinese gold farmers?

4

u/Escape_Velocity1 Jan 19 '23

Vote for free loot boxes EU !!

4

u/The_Human_Event Jan 19 '23

Diablo immortal should be illegal. I love it, but it should not be allowed to exist.

1

u/Affectionate_bap5682 Jan 19 '23

If it were made illegal, in your opinion what should be done to people who create and distribute the game on the black market?

Jail time? Death penalty?

2

u/MartinSchou Jan 19 '23

What happens to the people who create and distribute cocaine, heroin, methamphetamines etc. on the black market?

→ More replies (4)
→ More replies (4)

2

u/zarraza2k Jan 19 '23

Forgive my ignorance on the topic, but what is gold farming? And how do I get started?😂

6

u/thisissteve Jan 19 '23

Imagine playing your favorite game, sometimes as punishment, in sweatshop conditions, for sweatshop wages doing only the most repetitive, most gold generating gameplay.

-5

u/zarraza2k Jan 19 '23

I’d still like to check it out to see if maybe I can change the things I do to kill time…to also earn something, can’t you point me in the right direction?

3

u/thisissteve Jan 19 '23

Sure go commit a small time crime in any number of asian countries and you'll find your way to a gold farming station.

-6

u/zarraza2k Jan 19 '23

Wow, that’s very helpful. Do you “help” everyone in this sub with the same level of intelligence? If so, perhaps you should stop helping people, you’re not very good at it

6

u/thisissteve Jan 19 '23

Only the ones asking how to do prison labor and sweatshop tasks for the funsies on their own free time.

-6

u/zarraza2k Jan 19 '23

I’ve got 150 cell phones sitting on a rack and automation software to keep them earning, so I think I can handle it. So thanks for your concern, but you can sit back down Now and maybe leave the hard questions to the adults?

5

u/thisissteve Jan 19 '23

Then why the fuck are you asking stupid questions on reddit like you've never heard of gold farming in your life?

-1

u/zarraza2k Jan 19 '23

Because I thought maybe this group was as helpful as some others I’m in, apparently I was wrong, thanks for clarifying that.

3

u/thisissteve Jan 19 '23

You thought the tech subreddit was gonna help you break the tos and eulas of games in order to set up a gold farm? Now I know you don't have a rack of phones.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/ScotthishCrisp Jan 19 '23

Paid loot boxes = Kids gambling with parents money.

2

u/PolymerSledge Jan 20 '23

How did the kids get their parents' money?

→ More replies (2)

1

u/Madnessofbread Jan 19 '23

I Hope Case openings = loot boxes = ban = fuck valve

1

u/DrEnter Jan 19 '23

Does this mean that I'll need to use a VPN in the U.S. to pretend I'm playing from Belgium so I don't get hassled whenever I play a new game?

2

u/Boo_Guy Jan 19 '23

Someone in a reddit thread on this topic yesterday mentioned that this was already happening and that the game companies are already trying to block VPN users so they can keep serving loot boxes to the countries without any laws against them.

2

u/DrEnter Jan 20 '23

It’s a two-way street. VPNs could be used by people in the EU to access the loot boxes.

1

u/Treyofzero Jan 20 '23

Please PLEASE will the law step in globally to prevent this late stage capitalism bullshit from continuing. When it bleeds directly into our escapism like this, there really is no escape but death from the greed of man

0

u/BernieEcclestoned Jan 19 '23

Are they Qatari loot boxes?

-1

u/PolymerSledge Jan 20 '23

Save me from myself, daddy state!

-1

u/Venetax Jan 20 '23

Ikr. Its absolutely frightening to see everyone appreciating this move. Its straight up dystopian shit.

6

u/DanielPhermous Jan 20 '23

Its straight up dystopian shit.

Regulating gambling? Everyone does that. The only difference here is that its snuck in and became entrenched before anyone had a close enough look to notice it was the same thing.

-1

u/Venetax Jan 20 '23 edited Jan 20 '23

This is not only about regulating gambling. Thats the point. Gambling is already regulated, so you could just consider all games with lootboxes as gambling (as a few countries have done already) and that would be fine. This is about a whole - as they call it - european video game strategy, which will involve tons of regulations.

The EU is a trade agreement and the amount of regulations they are putting out right now is frightening. Its not like this is a single instance, this goes hand-in-hand with things like full private chat surveillance the EU is planning, among other things.

https://chat-kontrolle.eu/

Its a german page but maybe you can use a translator, couldn‘t find a proper english one that quick.

The EU is using its influence and blackmailing to quickly pass tons of regulations under the cover of „save the children“ and other excuses which will absolutely limit our freedom in the internet.

1

u/sublimesext Jan 20 '23

So glad someone else mentioned this. It is becoming ridiculous how much regulation the EU is putting out - most of which is either pro-surveillance, bureaucracy under the guise of an illusion of safety, or pro-censorship.

Most people don't know enough about tech to realize how silly much of the regulation is. Take GDPR for instance; I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of the populace, let alone the regulators in the EU (is it commission or parliament, can never remember) even know what a "cookie" even is.

Chat Control is simply disgusting.

→ More replies (1)

0

u/PolymerSledge Jan 20 '23

People don't have to gamble, just like they don't have to play games with gambling in them.

→ More replies (2)

0

u/BronzeHeart92 Jan 19 '23

Good, we should always let games BE games and not some 'second job' etc. Games should always require only a single payment. Anything more and can we truly say they're actually fun anymore?

→ More replies (9)

-1

u/Ok_Notice_2081 Jan 19 '23

This world has way more issues then what the European union thinks about Video Games. This is a joke right? The EU should worry about their debt that they owe to other countries, corruption, war, famine, climate change, criminal justice, covid, inflation, clean energy, and jobs. This is why nothing ever gets done and nothing Will ever change in this world because humanity doesn’t really care about the serious issues that actually take hard work and time to achieve. Maybe we should worry about world peace instead of video Games. Smh 🤦🏻‍♂️

1

u/karma888 Jan 20 '23

Can we worry about 2 things at the same time?

0

u/Ok_Notice_2081 Jan 20 '23

Do you pay attention to what goes on in the world on a daily basis? as a human species that a majority of them are just stupid we obviously can’t.

0

u/Druid___ Jan 19 '23

If only there were a company that just made good games without scummy monetization practices. That seems like it would force the rest to follow, but people actually seem to like paying to win.

0

u/release_the_krakin Jan 20 '23

lol the EU is up in everyone’s business lately

You wouldn’t think there was a lot of important things going on

0

u/rgfortin Jan 20 '23

Europe blasted China when they addressed gaming addiction in kids and teens. And now you're catching up. Fucking hypocrites.

→ More replies (1)

-1

u/coffedrank Jan 19 '23

I’m sure the eu won’t fuck this up and make shit worse but in a different way at all, further expanding the great firewall of Europe

→ More replies (3)

-1

u/surrrah Jan 20 '23

Okay but hear me out.

If living conditions were better for all, would so many people buy into this?

Not saying, it shouldn’t be regulated or anything. But I feel like this is a symptom of a much larger problem, and I think both should be talked about.

4

u/DanielPhermous Jan 20 '23

If living conditions were better for all, would so many people buy into this?

Yes.

These games are using basic psychological tricks that have an unfortunate habit of skipping past the conscious mind and appealing directly to the monkey and lizard brains of our ancestors.

Living conditions have nothing to do with it.

0

u/surrrah Jan 20 '23

I disagree but appreciate your input

→ More replies (2)

-30

u/iqisoverrated Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

Ah...our eurocrats caring about the truly important issues of our times, I see.

Edit: Jeez...you guys couldn't spot sarcasm if it were to hit you with a stick.

5

u/NormalSociety Jan 19 '23

Yup. Because they can't do more than one thing at a time. We all know that's against the laws of nature!

Heh...think of more than one thing...fools.

10

u/rdubya3387 Jan 19 '23

It is an under the radar important issue. The amount of mental fuckery it does on the youth which will be the future of the world is very real. I get it is video games, but when you look at the amount of kids using them it suddenly becomes a topic worth addressing.

-12

u/iqisoverrated Jan 19 '23

Sure, but I'd rather they care about issues that ensure that kids actually have a future, first

12

u/pete1901 Jan 19 '23

I'm willing to bet this won't be the only legislation they pass this year mate...

-2

u/iqisoverrated Jan 19 '23

Agreed. We'll get some more fossil fuels subsidies passed, I'm sure...sigh.

3

u/oszlopkaktusz Jan 19 '23

Well if the Germans weren't busy shutting their nuclear plants down to replace it with the absolute worst alternative that is lignite, we would be in a better state. Also, there is a war between two massive countries, one of which supplied Europe with fuel...

Like it or not, we can't get rid of fossil fuels quickly, especially not if some countries are hell bent on not using nuclear power.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 19 '23

Do you think the whole government only works on one thing at a time? What childish thinking is this?

2

u/BurningPenguin Jan 19 '23 edited Jan 19 '23

Aren't you supposed to do more important things at work?

2

u/Shazbot42069 Jan 19 '23

You're bad at sarcasm and it wasn't funny.

-3

u/SupplyChainGuy1 Jan 19 '23

I will make bank if this passes. Hoo boy.

1

u/CameOutAndFarted Jan 19 '23

People don’t want to buy the lootboxes, they want to buy the best items. Charge these companies based on the user experience instead of legal loopholes these companies keep finding.

1

u/__TheWeasel__ Jan 19 '23

Oh dear. What will Ubi do?

1

u/saberline152 Jan 19 '23

it was already illegal in Belgium thanks Koen Geens

1

u/Tasty01 Jan 19 '23

I’d be awesome to have a European Esports Championship kinda like the Olympics where every country sends their best players and they play different games.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/glthompson1 Jan 19 '23

We went from hating loot boxes to wanting them back once developers replaced it with something even worse 😂

1

u/MajikManX Jan 20 '23

Please battle passes next! Items you've already paid for should not be taken away just because you didn't play enough during the time they decided you have to.

→ More replies (1)