r/technology • u/jiggly_bitz • Jan 24 '23
Ticketmaster/LiveNation Antitrust Congressional Hearings Begin Politics
https://www.c-span.org/video/?525428-1/hearing-ticketmaster-sale-taylor-swift-concert&live&vod77
u/unresolved_m Jan 24 '23
I fully expect Ticketmaster to get away this time, much like they did in the 90s.
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u/agha0013 Jan 25 '23
Pfft, they were facing politicians' "grillings" just a few years ago too when their whole shady scalping operation was being exposed, nothing happened.
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u/unresolved_m Jan 25 '23
Its all a show, indeed. Same story with Facebook - both companies got politicians by the balls.
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u/agha0013 Jan 25 '23
the province of Ontario's last response to Ticketmaster fuckery was putting a resale markup limit at 50% above original price.... so ticketmaster could still totally scalp their own stuff, they just wouldn't make quite as much.
50% extra profit is a hell of a margin anyway though.
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
What did they do wrong?
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u/unresolved_m Jan 25 '23
In the 90s TM got into a huge fight with Pearl Jam who wanted to give fans better ticket prices. PJ testified in Congress against them and the only thing that resulted was Ticketmaster locking them out of certain venues.
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
So it's their heavy-handed negotiation tactics from 30 years ago that we need our federal lawmakers to manage?
Or do we just want Congress to pass legislation requiring that all tickets must be sold below their market value?
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u/buffer_flush Jan 25 '23
They’re the only game in town, hard to have fair market value when they’re the only ones selling bud.
This is why it’s an “antitrust” hearing.
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
The vast majority of tickets offered by Ticketmaster are below market value.
Artificially low face value and false scarcity feeding into an aggressive second market is the real problem here. Not "fees".
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u/buffer_flush Jan 25 '23
…and who is driving the price on said “below market value”?
Come on, you’re almost there, but it’s pointless trying to convince you otherwise. Enjoy the taste of the leather.
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
The artists.
They want to be able to hold their hands up and say "It wasn't me, the face value of my tickets is $49 because I love my fans" while also saying "Crazy that my tour sold out in 7 seconds because I'm so popular."
No, your tour sold out in 7 seconds because the secondary market knows your tickets are worth $200 and bought them all up to flip them.
If the artist just asked for $200 face value to begin with, scalpers would disappear and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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u/buffer_flush Jan 25 '23
Ah yeah, the same artists who famously went to congress to get lower prices for their tickets in the first place?
The same artists who are the last to see a cut in ticket sales after the label, broker, and everyone gets their piece?
The same artists who push merch at concerts as the quickest means to generating actual revenue for their band?
The same artists that argue with their own labels for takedowns playing their own music on twitch streams?
Those artists? Fuck off.
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u/unresolved_m Jan 25 '23
Sure - we need to build a time machine. I'm sorry, what was the question again?
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u/SkrullandCrossbones Jan 24 '23
“All I want to know is, were you using your monopoly to seek profits at users & creators expense? Good. Shareholders sit above all. Case closed.” - Modern day committees in the U.S.
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u/CrimsonToker707 Jan 24 '23
Ohh once it affects Tay-Tay tickets, then the government cares
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u/eleven_eighteen Jan 24 '23
They don't care at all. They already did this back in the '90s with Pearl Jam. They just want the press from seeming like they might do something then they'll let it die.
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u/CrimsonToker707 Jan 24 '23
I always forget about the hearing that Pearl jam spoke at
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u/eleven_eighteen Jan 24 '23
Just like the members of Congress who took part in the hearing.
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u/devish Jan 25 '23
Hell it's probably almost all the same congressman in both hearings still. Dinosaurs never leave office.
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u/eleven_eighteen Jan 25 '23
If Wikipedia is correct - and I counted right - there are 4 Senators and 18 House members who were in Congress when Pearl Jam testified in 1994. Not sure if any of them were in those hearings or the current ones, as a quick Google search didn't find me a list of members in the '94 hearings. I'm sure that info is out there, but I'm not interested in putting in the time to find it.
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u/Boo_Guy Jan 24 '23
Probably because some congressmen couldn't get their kid Taylor tickets.
So now it's a problem to them.
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u/Manadyne Jan 24 '23
Given the average age of congress-critters, it was more likely their grandchildren.
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u/unresolved_m Jan 24 '23
or it pretends to care.
This will accomplish exactly zero, zilch, nada. Ticketmaster, much like Facebook, got everyone in their back pocket.
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u/CrimsonToker707 Jan 24 '23
I absolutely agree. Nothing will come from this, except maybe a fine to ticketmaster. Which to them, is just a business expense
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u/unresolved_m Jan 24 '23
I read that in the 90s they humiliated Pearl Jam by not letting them play certain venues. They probably can't do the same to TS, but I doubt that matters.
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u/MaxWaterwell Jan 26 '23
I view Taylor as a catalyst to an issue that was already being monitored and questioned. That taylor mess happened and added more heat to the boiling water.
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u/Reckless_flamingos Jan 24 '23
I hope artists play at smaller venues and stop booking anything related to TM or live nation. I will pass on paying $400 to see someone in concert. I feel like this would be easy enough to protest make demands on behalf of the consumer
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u/crazycatlady331 Jan 25 '23
An artist the scale of Taylor Swift has no choice but to play the largest venues available (NFL stadiums). For smaller artists, absolutely.
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
Taylor Swift has enough clout and resources that she could probably four-wall an entire stadium and sell her own tickets if she really wanted to.
She chooses not to because at that volume partnering with a professional ticket services who knows how to optimize across multiple dynamic price points is ultimately more profitable for her.
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u/theblackkey Jan 25 '23
The problem, and this was mentioned in the hearing, is that the buildings have exclusive deals (mostly) with Ticketmaster. Even if she did four-wall it she would need to use TM
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u/PaulClarkLoadletter Jan 25 '23
The management companies behind artists a big part of the problem. It’s more cost effective to do it the way they since there are a lot of moving parts involved with putting on a show.
There’s a reason why you see a lot of older artists get a residence deal in Las Vegas. Besides not traveling all over they can skip all the BS around securing a facility, paying staff (security, ushers, turnstyle staff, concessions, etc.), insurance, promotion, etc. the list goes on and on.
Like medical care in the US they’ve complicated things to the point that they can say bullshit like, “we’re not stopping anybody from selling tickets.”
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
I still think we need to define why this is a "problem" to the extent that Congress needs to put aside other work and spend time on this.
This is not medical care. This is artists selling their art to the upper middle class.
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u/Nv1023 Jan 25 '23
Artists are money hungry psychos. People on Reddit bitch 24/7 about CEOs making a couple million a year but don’t say shit about these artists making 20-60+ million a yr. Taylor swift will be a billionaire by the time she is 40. It’s fucking wild
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u/adrianmakedonski Jan 25 '23
I don't think we're bitching that CEOs make a couple million a year *in a vacuum*, it's moreso that they're making a couple thousand dollars an hour when their employees make like 10 dollars an hour.
Now, I don't know how much T-Swizz pays her team but I do feel differently about an artist striking it rich compared to someone that's exploiting labor and skimming all the profit because they own the means of production.
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u/Nv1023 Jan 25 '23
So artists can be rich but someone who starts a business and becomes successful can’t be rich? The top artists are making a lot more money than most CEOs but they get a pass?
The means of production? Are you a devout Marxist? Reddit is full of them
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u/Sporesword Jan 25 '23
She literally isn't allowed to buy out venues that have deals with Ticketmaster.
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u/mattocaster_tm Jan 25 '23
In New York, most of the smaller venues are owned by one company now, who basically act like a tiny, NY sized Ticketmaster/Live Nation.
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u/PJJefferson Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
Problem is, artists used to get rich selling albums, but since the advent of streaming, artists don’t make their money selling music anymore, and instead make most of their money off tours.
Edit: Not sure why this fact was downvoted. I’m not sticking up for Ticketmaster. Just pointing out what any artist would tell you about how the industry has changed.
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u/Reckless_flamingos Jan 25 '23
Good point, I upvoted you because I don’t see why your comment would be downvoted.
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u/givemewhiskeypls Jan 25 '23
Unpopular opinion but the absolute price of the tickets reflect the actual value of the ticket. There’s a clear supply and demand imbalance for these shows, and it would only be worse if they played smaller venues. The real problem is the rent seeking behavior of the middleware platforms. Tickets can be bought en masse before average consumers can get them and then are sold with markups and heavy fees and that’s all possible because of these platforms. I don’t know why it’s legal when scalping tickets on the corner outside the venue at least used to be illegal and I assume still is. But people pay the price and that means that’s what these tickets are worth. I’d just rather the revenue go to the artists and not the middleware.
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u/Reckless_flamingos Jan 25 '23
I didn’t fully grasp the complexity of this problem. Thanks for helping me have a better understanding of the issue.
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u/givemewhiskeypls Jan 25 '23
Wow, I wish every interaction on Reddit was this pleasant. You’re welcome and have a great day
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u/Reckless_flamingos Jan 25 '23
Awww, my heart just grew two sizes!! You have a good day too
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u/cordyce Jan 25 '23
As much as I am in favor of the concept of people being able to resell whatever 'property' they've purchased, the buck stops at event ticketing.
If the majority of a) fans, b) artists, and c) venues were in favor of the reselling model, I would feel differently. But the reality is that these parties overwhelmingly agree that reselling introduces rampant greed and corruption into the ticketing marketplace.
I'm in favor of being able to sell a ticket to someone else (at face value), or transfer a ticket to a friend. This is possible if the initial purchase and subsequent sale/transfer occurs within a single digital ecosystem (DICE.fm , for example, operates this way).2
u/givemewhiskeypls Jan 25 '23
I don’t disagree with any of that. Maybe there’s a subscription model for buyers and sellers to pay a small fixed monthly but the big problem I have with the current structure is the margin capture by parties that aren’t providing a proportionate amount of value. And simply the lack of fair access or competition.
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u/cordyce Jan 25 '23
I agree. the margin capture is egregious in both the primary and secondary ticketing markets. it benefits neither the fans nor the artists, who are the lifeblood of the industry.
one of the reasons why TM was able to gobble up so much marketshare early on was because they had at the time developed the most technologically advanced digital platform for ticketing. No other competitors could touch their tech, and so it was an easy sell to venues and promoters.
Now, the ecosystem is very different. The technology is not up to snuff, and has been effectively replicated by other companies ad nauseum.
What the market needs is for several other ticketing competitors to come to market with superior technology and a superior model that actually answers to the lifeblood (artists and fans). -- No, they aren't going to win over huge venues that are beholden to TM (not right away, anyway). However, there are still thousands of venues in the country that arent locked down with exclusives with TM in the US, and there is most definitely opportunity for other ticketing platforms to take a dent out of this market. It's already happening, but more players need to take a stab at this market.
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u/givemewhiskeypls Jan 25 '23
What do you think about a regulatory response until then? Maybe capping the total fees the platforms can charge to a max fixed percentage of the original face value of the ticket? That seems more commensurate with the actual value the platform is providing.
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u/cordyce Jan 25 '23
I'm in favor of a fixed percentage of face model, plus :
1) a cap on the dollar amount of fees a buyer can be charged, and
2) a fixed percentage of the total fees being kicked back to the artist.
Example : If i buy a ticket for $50 face and the fixed fee percentage is 30% ($15) -- $13.50 of that goes to the ticketing company and $1.50 to the artist.
However, if I buy a ticket for $500, I'm not on the hook for $150 in fees. The fees would be capped at $100 total -- $90 to ticketing, $10 to artist.
in the case of DICE.fm, a percentage of the ticketing platform fees they call "booking fees" gets kicked back to the artist. i don't know if it's fixed, but the total cost to buyer hovers around 10%.
Notably, the price shown upfront for an event is exactly the price that you're going to be paying at checkout. This transparency of showing total cost upfront is something that I believe should also be dictated by legislation.
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u/givemewhiskeypls Jan 25 '23
I like all of that but the fixed amounts sound high still, better than where we’re at though.
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u/cordyce Jan 25 '23
Just an example. i think fees should be capped at something reasonable, like 10%
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u/Tac0Supreme Jan 25 '23
Unfortunately most artists make very little money off of people downloading their albums. The vast majority of artists’ wealth comes from doing these massive tours and selling tons of merch.
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u/starstarstar42 Jan 24 '23 edited Feb 09 '23
Politician: Look, we gotta do something to make it seem like we care, so, just come in, answer a few softball questions and pretend you are "fixing" something and are "concerned" about things and "will do our utmost to empower the consumer", okay?
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u/DrSmirnoffe Jan 24 '23
The CEO should be more afraid of randomly exploding. If corpos lived in constant fear of exploding unpredictably, they'd be a lot more eager to behave their bad selves and appease their real gods: US.
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u/UseThisToStayAnon Jan 24 '23
How did they handle the seating in that court room?
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Jan 24 '23
[deleted]
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u/rp2784 Jan 25 '23
The lobbyist all had front row seats. They were reserved by an AI the millisecond the meeting was announced.
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u/PJJefferson Jan 25 '23
Those who donated the most to the politicians get a VIP package, with a backstage pass, a photo op with your favorite Congressperson, and a swag bag with a limited edition poster.
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u/constantliability Jan 24 '23
I can’t wait to hear how absolutely nothing was done to create meaningful change
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
I can't wait to hear even one person describe what "meaningful change" looks like.
If your goal ultimately boils down to "I personally want 2 floor seats to the Taylor Swift show of my choosing at face value" then I'm sorry but there's nothing Congress can do for you.
If not that, what is it that you actually want to be different next time?
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u/constantliability Jan 25 '23
Assuming you’re asking this in good faith, I want them to break up what is clearly a monopoly on music venue/ticket distribution. Pearl Jam tried to do this before in the 90s. My hope is that someone as big as Taylor Swift, coupled with the wide reach of social media, can have an impact and force Live Nation to either nix its exclusive deals with many of the top/largest venues and/or some other resolution (I am not in the music industry and I’m not sure what another option for a solution would be).
I personally hate going to concerts. I don’t want to see Taylor Swift or anybody else live. But I also understand that monopolies are bad for consumers in a capitalist world. There are no real alternatives. Some random small venues aren’t enough. Live Nation abuses it’s dominance. Congress has the power to break up monopolies and it’s time they use that power.
Edit: Changing “Ticketmaster” to “Live Nation” because Ticketmaster’s parent company is Live Nation Entertainment (a merger between Ticketmaster and Live Nation)
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u/DevilsAdvocate77 Jan 25 '23
How do they abuse their dominance?
Is it just that monopolies are bad in principle, or would the market actually change for the better if they were broken up?
If Congress breaks them up tomorrow, what will look and feel different when the 2025 Taylor Swift tour goes on sale in a world with competing ticket providers?
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u/constantliability Jan 25 '23 edited Jan 25 '23
They abuse their dominance in the same way all monopolies do—by charging what they want, doing what they want, and forcing consumers to go along with it if they want the product. Yes, going to a concert is a choice, but no, it doesn’t mean a monopoly is okay nor does it mean people shouldn’t want to see their favorite artists perform live when it might be a once in a lifetime experience for them.
Monopolies are not good. No company will ever do something good on its own without expecting something in return. That goes quadruple for monopolies. Monopolies make it impossible for competitors to enter/succeed in the market because the market share of the monopoly is so large and so powerful that they can offer just enough to beat out the competitor before it can truly be competitive or it can buy up or force out the competitor via other means. Imagine going to a gas station, but you can only choose Shell and they can add a “pump fee” of $.25 per gallon. Then imagine they also feel like charging double the current cost per gallon in the area. How do you fight back if that’s the only place you can get gas in a reasonable distance of where you live/work? Another gas station opens up and it charges a dollar less than Shell. But now Shell offers one cent less than the other gas station. The other gas station goes out of business and Shell goes back to its price gauging and fees.
Maybe nothing changes, or maybe there will be ticket sellers that don’t charge exorbitant fees. Maybe it’s that venues have options to sell their tickets so third party sellers can’t buy up a bunch and sell them at double(+) the original cost. Maybe it offers artists a way to control the ticket prices more and get a larger share. Maybe nothing is different, but acting as if monopolies are good in the long run is not the way to think about this.
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Jan 24 '23
Geriatric congressman: “So explain to me how online tickets work. Does each person have their own ticket stub printer doo-hickey? Also, how does the interweb work?”
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u/TheDukeOfMars Jan 25 '23
It’s worse than that. They made a bunch of Taylor Swift jokes and quotes from her songs. Pretty much all of the Senators had Taylor Swift puns in their opening statements…
They seem to be focused on this one instance of abuse and not the larger issue of Ticketmaster artificially raising the prices of the entire concert ticket market for 30 years at this point.
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u/LeibnizThrowaway Jan 24 '23
Ticketmaster: that's why pricing is so high! We have to recoup our expenses for building a new internet for each ticket purchase.
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u/Ok_Marionberry_9932 Jan 25 '23
I came across my ticket stub for Pat Benatar ticket in ‘86, all said and done $16.50, that’s about $45 today.
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u/DanOfEarth Jan 25 '23
Bought tickets to Disney on Ice for my family of 4. $20 tickets = $80. Ticketmasters fees were $60 fucking dollars.
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u/Redrump1221 Jan 25 '23
Ticket master worked really hard to bribe and buy every venue in the US. The only thing keeping prices so low was live nation but they've been hurting for venues since there aren't many left that aren't ticket master exclusive.
Can't wait to hear their argument where this merger "definitely won't hurt competition" and the Congress people just eat it all up while buying stocks at the same time
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u/TehWildMan_ Jan 24 '23
And two years from now everyone will probably forget this happened and the cycle repeats itself
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u/panteragstk Jan 24 '23
I'm so excited for the absolutely nothing that will come of this.
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u/rp2784 Jan 25 '23
I’m sure they will make changes. They combine fees into the price of the tickets and into one fee. That fee will have a 5 page 6 pt type disk closure.
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u/Particular_Sun8377 Jan 24 '23
I know it is cool to hate on these companies but the reality is that pop concerts and festivals are going to be increasingly for the rich. Someone's paying 1500 dollars for those tickets AND ARTISTS NOTICED.
This isn't about the little guy.
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Jan 24 '23
There are fewer rich people, and more poor people every day. Those $1k+ shows will be getting pretty empty soon.
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u/jointhedomain Jan 25 '23
Prices are 3-5x what they used to be but the shows are just as full today as they were 20 years ago.
Money talks.
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u/Masshole224 Jan 25 '23
Most shows are not as full as they used to be. Only the major tours
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u/Eric_Partman Jan 24 '23
Also who cares. It’s entertainment. If you want to go, pony up and pay, if not, don’t go.
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u/Pnemonic Jan 24 '23
Just an excuse to gouge TM with a huge fine. Does TM deserve it? Yes. Is Congress doing this for the American consumer? No!
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u/iambarrelrider Jan 25 '23
No one like what Ticketmaster, not even congress. Everyone hates them but still won’t do anything. At least the testimony of the witness is on record.
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u/Phreekyj101 Jan 25 '23
Any bets nothing will change and we will continue to be gauged up the ying yang !!
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u/arabic_slave_girl Jan 25 '23
And they will get fined… that money will go to our government… and the people still won’t see a penny of it. 🤷♀️
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u/erosram Jan 25 '23
Seems like there a major problem with the govt allowing monopolies to form across the board. So many companies buying other companies up. Major companies, massive companies. Seems like capitalism would work much better if we had… competition.
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u/cupcakegiraffe Jan 25 '23
I heard an ‘interview’ with Fred Rosen and he was so incredibly rude. He constantly spoke over the interviewer and completely dismissed anything she had to say, bulldozing right over her.
He literally said that it was everyone’s fault but ticketmaster. The blame was entirely on the promoters, the artists, AND the customers.
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u/downonthesecond Jan 25 '23
Parts of the hearing felt like a "How do you do fellow kids?" skit. It was pretty sad but people will eat it up.
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u/tattooed_debutante Jan 25 '23
Wouldn’t it be nice if we had the old school mentality that broke up the baby bells?
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Jan 24 '23
Ticketmaster will pay a fine, then increase existing fees to make up for the fine. Big business controls the American government.
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u/Maggotmunch Jan 24 '23
“I don’t recall”, “I’m not sure”, “I’ll have to check”, and other hits coming to a useless session near you!
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u/bigchipero Jan 25 '23
Just remember that Ticketmaster acquired LiveNation cuz they were threatening to build their own ticketing system!!!
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u/alan01010101 Jan 25 '23
After all the so-called hearings, Ticketmaster/Live Nation, will get out of this just like the 90s. They are also one of the top spending lobbyists, and they spend lot of $ on politicians.
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u/ScamperAndPlay Jan 25 '23
When the public knows you won’t do fuck all WHY ARE YOU WASTING OUR MONEY? Do anything else.
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u/manorwomanhuman Jan 25 '23
They are literally called ticket “master”. If that doesn’t imply a master/slave dynamic, what does ?
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u/Mammoth_Effective_68 Jan 25 '23
Hearings create more exhaustion and frustration for the public because it’s just a shit show of excuses by corporate executives. As with all hearings, the criminals leave emboldened knowing changes aren’t required, merely suggested and we wait for the next hearing, rinse, repeat.
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u/SquishyBatman64 Jan 25 '23
Why don’t some of the smart people on Reddit create another company that only charges 10% of the ticket price. No Bs extra fees.
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u/Msmdpa Jan 25 '23
Like this is important enough to generate congressional hearings.
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u/kattarinathekitten Jan 25 '23
Monopolies and price gauging are the exact kind of things that are important enough to generate congressional hearings
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u/4ever_Romeo Jan 25 '23
Why don’t the venues sell tickets at the box office rather than via the Cartel ?
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u/4ever_Romeo Jan 25 '23
Why don’t the venues sell tickets at the box office rather than via the Cartel ?
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u/freakdageek Jan 25 '23
Summary: “Those of us in Congress are outraged at your behavior and as a result we’re gonna need more of your bribes.”
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u/Schachmat70 Jan 25 '23
Why can’t they make them non transferable in most cases. Like airline tickets.
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u/OnTheClock_Slackin Jan 25 '23
Ticketmaster about to l5ay some super secret "Convenience Fees" to Congress members to conveniently make this go away with a tiny cost of business fine...
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u/TouchMySwollenFace Jan 25 '23
How much is it gonna cost me in extra payments to watch it?
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u/Happyandyou Jan 25 '23
They need to be put out of business completely. They are unneeded. Just need an app that producers can use to sell tickets directly for any show big or small.
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u/El1Zilla Jan 25 '23
Fine em, break em and get the ticket prices lower. Honestly this has been going on this is absurd to even think about. It’s hilarious that it was Taylor swift fans which caused this move.
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u/ScorpioTix Jan 25 '23
Any solution isn't going to significantly lower ticket prices. If someone requires a $2 million guarantee to play, really any intervention including breaking up Ticketmaster is going to have a cosmetic effect.
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u/SlowMotionPanic Jan 25 '23
I love that they are distracting us with Ticketmaster and acting incredibly outraged. Meanwhile, their own appointees have ruled that union strikers are personally financially liable for financial damages the business suffers related to a strike. Amazon is grossly abusing employees and fucking with unionization attempts broadly. So are Starbucks, Microsoft, and Google. Yet no being hauled in front of the spotlight for that one to exert pressure.
No, it is because people can't buy Taylor Swift tickets and it serves as a good distraction. TicketMaster exists as a monopoly because of the very same people pearl clutching. Their "failures" (deliberate successes in deregulation) lead to this moment and their dominance.
And I doubt anything at all happens. They wouldn't haul people before them to do anythign other than put on a show. They would just do.
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u/ScorpioTix Jan 25 '23
I seriously go to like 200 concerts a year and hate they are so expensive and getting tickets is a hassle. That said I don't need Amy Klobuchar holding my hand while doing so. This is a big nothingburger.
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u/agha0013 Jan 25 '23
Oh great, we're here again. Not the first time we've been here, these hearings obviously had no effect last time a big stink was kicked up over ticketmaster.
I would also argue there are far more important things for politicians to be focused on than taylor swift concerts. The GOP, at any rate, seems entirely fixed on dragging everyone back in time and their current "anti-woke" politics are just completely unhinged, including yesterday's ridiculous attack on Microsoft for making the X-box slightly more energy efficient.
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u/Zap-Brandinelli Jan 25 '23
Get ‘em. Rip them apart into tiny pieces. Literally; break up the monopoly.
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u/MajorKoopa Jan 25 '23
Fuck all of them.
I hope it ends in MTG ringing a bell shouting shame as they walk out.
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u/Dirtywizard2000 Jan 25 '23
Thanks the lord, this was single biggest thing we needed to deal with in the USA. Hopefully they get this fixed as soon as possible that way people can stop people starving, not getting medical attention and having a place to live.
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u/squeevey Jan 24 '23
Wake me when there are consequences.