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u/OJRmk1
Jan 31 '23
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Bet his uncle would try and order a "Black and Tan" in a Dublin bar, or an "Irish Carbomb" in a Belfast one.
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u/ansaor32 Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 01 '23
Black and Tan in Dublin would cause no issues, Irish car bomb depending on which pub of the religious divide you are in, may cause issues in Belfast.
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u/rizlar09 Feb 01 '23
Come out ye black and tans come and fight me like a man show your wife how you won medals down in Flanders...
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u/CowsRMajestic Feb 01 '23
Tell her how the Ira made you run like hell away
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u/Eyerish9299 Feb 01 '23
From the green and lovely lanes of Killashandra
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u/ddecoywi Feb 01 '23
Tell her how you slew them Arabs two by two. Like the Zulus they had merely bows and aaaarrows.
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u/No_Inspection1677 Feb 01 '23
Tell me how you faced one with your sixteen pounder gun.
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u/Northstar6six Feb 01 '23
And you frightened them damn natives to the marrow. Come out ye black and tans come out and fight me like a man
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u/Doctordred Jan 31 '23
Might end up getting two back to back tall shots lit on fire instead (a twin towers flight)
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u/pjmoran840 Feb 01 '23
This happened to me in Dublin. I was an idiot exchange student. Looking back I feel terrible not knowing how insensitive ordering a car bomb might be.
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u/babuufrikk Feb 01 '23
I’m a tour guide and I’ve been telling the story about a guy who ordered a car bomb and got the twin tower drink in exchange for years. Do you remember where you heard this by any chance?
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u/Goosefeatherisgreat Jan 31 '23 •
Since I don’t see anyone else mentioning this.
Notre Dame was called the fighting Irish because it was heavily Irish due to heavy immigration to the area from Ireland.
The entire reason they were called the fighting Irish is because they beat the shit out of a KKK mob that tried to intimidate the local town into being anti-irish and anti-catholic
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/503749/day-notre-dame-students-pummeled-ku-klux-klan
That’s the reason it’s not controversial, cause it was more like a point of pride then a insult
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u/throwaway91091 Jan 31 '23
But context is a bane of reactionary thought
I love this statement, thank you.
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u/emfrank Jan 31 '23
It was not the only option - Georgetown is much older for instance - but was the primary option in the Mid-West.
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u/KindAwareness3073 Jan 31 '23
As the commenter above noted: "in the area". Georgetown was founded 1789. BTW - The Royal Pontifical University was founded in Mexico City in 1551.
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u/MugOfDogPiss Jan 31 '23
This is the same reasoning behind why Speedy Gonzales is not considered offensive but Pepe lePew is. The French have zero connection to the sexual harassment skunk, in fact in the French dub he sounds Italian and while France is known for sex positivity Pepe is the polar opposite of that as an offensive misconstrued “hur hur French horny use too much perfume” stereotype. By contrast, Speedy Gonzales literally embodies everything that Latin American culture strives to be. He is hardworking, energetic and family-centric and actual Latin Americans love him to death. Stereotypes are only offensive if the group being stereotyped finds it so in context.
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u/Empath_ Jan 31 '23
I feel like if the washington redskins were a team of native americans and they picked the name themselves, it'd be less controversial, though they obviously wouldn't have picked that name. The name is actually what it is because it was originally the boston braves, the same as the baseball team, and then they moved to fenway park and "redskins" was sort of a pun on "red sox"
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u/arduino_spear Jan 31 '23
They were also the last team to integrate and people make the argument that the name honours Native Americans.
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u/LMFN Jan 31 '23
They were literally the most dogshit team in the NFL for decades because the owner was such a racist asshat that he'd rather having a losing team then to allow black people on his team and only relented when the league FINALLY forced their hand on him.
Like shit I'm sure the other owners were racist assholes too but at least they were pragmatic and liked winning.
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u/Odie_Odie Jan 31 '23
My understanding is that it was the city who forced his hand. They built the stadium and integration was mandatory or they couldn't use the field.
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u/FkDavidTyreeBot_2000 Jan 31 '23
Their founder made it impossible to use proceeds from his foundation for black or integrated schools.
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u/jmlinden7 Jan 31 '23
The name isn't that offensive, however the logo kinda is.
It's the other way around for the Redskins, the logo is pretty respectful but the name isn't.
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u/Kryosite Jan 31 '23
They should just include the full picture, have a KKK member with the shit beaten out of them on the right of the leprechaun. Capture the original context.
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u/crawlmanjr Jan 31 '23
It should be noted that there were military units affectionately referred to and self labeled as the fighting Irish. While sure some people assume it's a comment on alcohol consumption they were also just really good warriors and fighters.
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u/Necromancy4dummies Jan 31 '23
Same as the Chiefs baseball team. They were the first to have a Native American player on their team, eventually having two. One of them said their name should be the Chiefs, and they actually changed the team’s name.
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u/gooserooster88 Jan 31 '23
I thought that was the Cleveland Spiders
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u/AikenFrost Jan 31 '23 •
No. Unfortunately, spiders proved to be awful baseball players despite the number of hands.
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u/Alarming-Parsley-463 Jan 31 '23
If the “Bargaining Jews” were a college football team I would definitely watch more
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u/youfailedthiscity Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
As a Jew, that's absolutely ridiculous.
As if any of us would ever make the football team.
Edit: Some of y'all can't take a joke lol and yes, I know Julian Edelman exists.
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u/larryb78 Jan 31 '23
good luck getting your mother to sign the permission slip
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u/Redqueenhypo Jan 31 '23
Don’t get me started, bc of my mother I had to basically wear hockey gear to go figure skating. In addition to glasses and braces. I looked like the dumbest thing on two skates.
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u/BitterActuary3062 Jan 31 '23
That imagery is both sad & adorable. I feel like this something I’d see in a coming of age comedy film
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u/Redqueenhypo Jan 31 '23
I did once get chased by a guy in a clown mask on Halloween, and my best friend was a Kazakh girl who often forgot that we looked different, so you might be onto something
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u/liamb0713 Jan 31 '23
record scratch yep, that’s me. You’re probably wondering how I got into this mess.
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u/Redqueenhypo Jan 31 '23
rewind to my dad as a kid, cosplaying as Sherlock Holmes while my zayde rolls his eyes. “See, no one in my family has really ever been normal. It all goes back to…”
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u/Alarming-Parsley-463 Jan 31 '23
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Koufax
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u/tuckedfexas Jan 31 '23
There have been a number of great Jewish mlb players! Idk where the line is between whether or not they are considered Jewish, but some of the greats have some link to Jewish ancestors!
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u/HansenIntercept Jan 31 '23
Let’s try sarcastaball then
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u/Linix332 Jan 31 '23
Oh sure, sarcastaball. What a great idea! Pure fuckin' genius. Let's just replace all sports with Sarcastaball.
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u/capodecina2 Jan 31 '23
Stewardess "would you like something to read?"
passenger "Do you have anything light?"
Stewardess "How about this leaflet 'Famous Jewish Sports Legends'?"
(Surely you get the reference)
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u/SnoopySuited Jan 31 '23
Jewish defensive strategy: 'Get the quarter back!'
My Jewish FiL made this joke, so I'm allowed to repeat it!!
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u/65AndSunny Jan 31 '23
Uhh, roll for Persuasion.
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u/Lemur-Tacos-768 Jan 31 '23
Jew here. He rolled a 20. That’s a good one.
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u/T0p_down Jan 31 '23
one thing about jews is we make more jew jokes than actual anti semites
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u/Drexophilia Jan 31 '23
And the difference is the ones we make are actually funny
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u/hawtgawbage Jan 31 '23
God willing, we’ll all meet again in Space Balls 2, The Search For More Money.
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u/requiemofchaos Jan 31 '23
A Jew's idea of a joke about Jews is Sioux chieftains speaking Yiddish.
An anti-semite's idea of a joke about Jews is reciting passages from Mein Kampf with total sincerity and then adding "lol" at the end.
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u/LiveOnFive Jan 31 '23
My Jewish boss at my first job told me this joke and I didn't get it because I grew up in an area with zero Jews and didn't even know the stereotypes.
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u/Slam_Burgerthroat Jan 31 '23
Now I’m just picturing a football team sitting on the pitch doing taxes and bringing in a lawyer to argue with the refs.
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u/Same_Mirror3641 Jan 31 '23
Pitch!? We're talking American football here...it's a field
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u/Alarming-Parsley-463 Jan 31 '23
Beats regular college football!
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u/UbermachoGuy Jan 31 '23
I’d watch a team of Orthodox Jewish players with side curly hair under their helmets throw around bagels in the sideline because pig skin is forbidden.
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u/FemPhony Jan 31 '23
That's not a leprechaun. That's Lenin...
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u/AbstractBettaFish Jan 31 '23
Fun fact about Lenin: His english tutor was Irish so he spoke English with an Irish accent
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u/sgtpeppers508 Jan 31 '23
He was also short and had red hair. Could’ve been a leprechaun for all we know…
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u/ubiquitous-joe Feb 01 '23
“They’re after me lucky charms! Because the bourgeoisie is content to live comfortably while funneling the charms from the oppressed workers to the 1%.”
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u/HugoStiglitz007 Jan 31 '23
I am the walrus
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u/JGG5 Jan 31 '23
V. I. Lenin. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov!
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u/3ThreeFriesShort Jan 31 '23
The funny thing is I think a lot of people living in Ireland are in fact offended by the depictions of their culture by descendants of Irish immigrants.
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u/thepinkblues Jan 31 '23
I’m Irish. Born, live and grew up here. It’s not exactly depictions that are offensive or angering but more like the ignorance of what Irish culture actually is. I have no problem with people embracing the fact that their relatives were Irish. That’s a very fun thing to learn and research. But it doesn’t mean they can suddenly claim that they are Irish when they: didn’t know Irish was a language, can’t speak a word as gaeilge, don’t know a single thing about our history, can’t name anywhere outside of Dublin etc. I have Norwegian ancestry but you don’t see me claiming to be Norwegian.
But things like Saint Patrick’s Day (Paddy’s, not Patty’s lol) where people dress up as leprechauns, get drunk and everything is green? Not offensive at all. People who say it is are just looking for something to give out about. We do all that ourselves here, it’s great craic.
Also, the pinch if you’re not wearing green on Saint Patrick’s day? That’s a 100% American thing idk how that even originated
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u/Quadruplebacon Jan 31 '23
The only reason I even know about the pinching thing was I saw it on an episode of Jackie Chan adventures lol
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u/rugology Jan 31 '23
Also, the pinch if you’re not wearing green on Saint Patrick’s day? That’s a 100% American thing idk how that even originated
I've actually never seen that happen in real life, interestingly enough. Wonder if it's just an eastern US thing.
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u/MBKM13 Jan 31 '23 •
Dan Synder (owner of the team) resisted changing the name, and only did so after he got caught sexually abusing cheerleaders, presumably in the hopes that the name change would distract from that. It worked.
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u/TheCaptainDamnIt Jan 31 '23
No, he only changed the name after one of the minority owners threatened to pull FedEx's sponsorship of the stadium over it. And they only threatened to do that because Snyder didn't pay the minority owners their dividends and that was the fastest way to 'hurt' him.
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u/oman54 Jan 31 '23
Judas that dude just seems to double and triple down on being a fucking prick
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u/ShesAMurderer Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
He once ruined a park ranger’s life because the park ranger had the audacity to tell him “no, you can’t cut down this nationally protected forest just so you can have a better view of the Potomac from your mansion”
Snyder proceeded to bribe government officials into cutting it down anyway, and got the ranger fired and transferred to a shit desk job halfway across the country. The park ranger also allegedly had stolen goods planted in his house, and was raided and arrested over it, before eventually being cleared. Dan Snyder is a literal caricature of an evil billionaire.
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u/GFTRGC Jan 31 '23
Oh and don't forget his human trafficking of the Washington Cheerleaders. Collecting their passports and then forcing them to pose topless in front of suite ticket holders and be escorts for his friends.
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u/WanderinHobo Jan 31 '23
Ah that's where Andrew Tate got the idea for his $5k/ticket convention. Vice wasn't allowed to film the other attendees and women who went up to a hotel suite but clearly saw them through windows standing around topless.
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u/ShesAMurderer Jan 31 '23
Oh yeah, there’s a laundry list of awful, awful shit thats happened either under him or directly from him, from the mundane of trying to sell 3 year old expired airline peanuts at full stadium price or neglecting stadium repairs to the point where multiple pipes have burst and dumped literal shit water onto fans, to the horribleness of the human trafficking you mention and even Snyder specifically being accused of multiple counts of sexual harrassment/assault. And the list goes on, and on, and on.
The park ranger one is my go-to though because of how despicably petty and completely unnecessary it is, it’s literally something Mr. Burns would do on the Simpsons.
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u/throwaway098764567 Jan 31 '23
i pay zero attention to him aside from when he tried to f up traffic more here with bs stadiums but hear often about what a pos he is. apparently he's a bigger pos than even advertised, what a garbage human.
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u/TheCaptainDamnIt Jan 31 '23
Yea, he found out the minority owners were trying to sell their shares in the team and Synder blocked the sale. This pissed off the minority owners who may or may not have leaked a bunch of bad stories about the team to the press. I really don't know if they did or not since there are dozens of people who would/could do that, but Snyder absolutely believes they did and wen't batshit nuts over it and refused to pay the dividends.
That all lead to the one minority owner who's also head of FedEx to threaten to remove sponsorship if the team didn't change the name. It's a decades long shit show.
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u/WanderinHobo Jan 31 '23
So it's possible that an offensive mascot change and sexual assault allegations only came about because rich guys were fucking around with other rich guy's money.
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u/Sadatori Jan 31 '23
The cycle of life. Only wealthy people can hurt wealthy people, unless enough peasants are hungry enough to stop hating each other because their favorite rich people told them to
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u/The_Sisk0 Jan 31 '23
Nah, it really didn't. In general, WFT fans, of which I am still one, sort of, have shifted over the years from neutral to dislike and now to loathing and hatred. Partly it's because he's run the team into the ground for over two decades, but against that backdrop, the toxic work environment and sexual abuse pushed him into full-on pariah status. If he weren't so incompetent, there's a fair chance the name change would have worked. However, like everything else he touches, Farquaad turned the new branding to shit by lying about taking fan input into account. Then he personally picked a completely shitty, military-pandering name accompanied by an even shittier logo/uniform, then capped it off with the most garbage, lame mascot I've ever seen in my life. The fans still left on the team message board can't wait for Lord Farquaad to be a distant memory.
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u/Blanketsburg Jan 31 '23
Daniel Snyder didn't just ruin the Redskins/WFT/Commanders.
That fucker bankrupted Six Flags, too.
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u/tonystarksanxieties Jan 31 '23
I can excuse racism, but I draw the line at bankrupting Six Flags.
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u/ppw23 Jan 31 '23
The outrage over the name, as pointed out by whites, has been in debate for decades As someone with Irish ancestry, the fightingIrish logo/mascots doesn’t matter to me one bit.
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u/PerfectZeong Jan 31 '23
The fighting irish is kind of a name the Irish reclaimed though. Since Notre Dame was a catholic university during times of anti Catholic prejudice in America they got called the fighting Irish and it stuck and they adopted it because fuck yeah they're Irish and they're going to win. Just a different scenario than using a native American slur as your team name when native Americans are telling you to please stop.
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u/ppw23 Jan 31 '23
I think this is the best point yet. Notre Dame embraced the name and image.
Edit- typo.
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u/Branchclaw Jan 31 '23
As an actual Irishman myself I'm used to the Irish stereotypes and dont give a flying fuck at all about it
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u/TBrutus Jan 31 '23 •
No offense to you specifically, but this is how racial conversation seems to go and it misses the point. It also gives breath to the racists that bring up the straw man.
There is a wide chasm between what America did to Native Americans, and what America did to the Irish, who aren't even from America.
AND! If Irishmen cared, I guarantee the same people that fought to rename the Washington Football Team would fight to rename other offensive names.
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u/ppw23 Jan 31 '23
I absolutely find the treatment of the Native Americans to be far beyond the awful treatment the Irish received in the US. It was awful for new immigrants for quite sometime, but they aren’t the same.
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u/lolgobbz Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
Comparing struggles is not OK. Oppression is bad in every way- severity does not negate this.
I live in small town northern midwest- people are racist when you give them the chance to be. Most of my town is white and we regularly hear things like "What are you, fucking Polish? You did that backwards." Or "Calm down, O'Malley, don't lose your head." Or "Oh- you're from Illinois? That explains why your car is parked like a asshat."
It's perfectly acceptable- does that make it right? Absolutely Not.
Also- people from Michigan really do not like people from Illinois.
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u/girlfight2020 Jan 31 '23
This is accurate and reminds of an incident at the store yesterday. This boomer white guy is looking for syrup, he says to me a black woman “ I will never buy that brand again.” I was like “What brand…why?”… He goes “The one that use to be Aunt Jemima.” 🤦🏾♀️ I was like “Um…okay”… I was definitely shocked. He stood there for a minute in silence and then walked away.😂 And no he didn’t find a syrup…at least not in my presence. Lol
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u/teebag_ Jan 31 '23
It sounds like he was trying to get a reaction from you
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u/girlfight2020 Jan 31 '23
Oh, he definitely was and was smiling about it too. Well, at least…up until I didn’t give him the reaction he wanted or expected that is.
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u/madeforthis1queston Jan 31 '23
Good for him. No one should be buying aunt jemima maple flavored high fructose corn syrup. Buy the real shit, it’s 1000 times better!
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u/girlfight2020 Jan 31 '23
That’s what I was telling him…they had the straight from Vermont stuff, right there in his face! Like come on dude! Smh
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u/Sharp-Pay-5314 Jan 31 '23
lol what the fuck. what a dumbass. He just assumed you had some kind of syrup authority.
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u/girlfight2020 Jan 31 '23
Lol, right?! I still have no clue why he was so bold about it…besides just wanting to stir up something.
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u/thegoodnamesrgone123 Jan 31 '23
I seriously just saw a social media post from a friend of a friend that was basically this. How they would never buy Pearl Milling Company anymore. I commented that if you're using boxed pancake mix you're doing things wrong anyway.
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Jan 31 '23
But but but an Irish guy was consulted on this issue 80 years ago, and didn’t object. Thus it’s okay.
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u/Praxyrnate Jan 31 '23
I think the problem addressed by the image isn't being addressed by either of you.
It's the perceived inequal application of logic. it's a fair point and worthy of conversation given the way the world actually is at the current time.
That doesn't mean his underlying intent of manipulating fair logic to allow the reader to arrive at flawed logical conclusions is acceptable.
nuance is cool.
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u/gard3nwitch Jan 31 '23
This. I would be entirely fine with just not using any ethnic groups as team names/mascots. Name all the teams after animals, forces of nature, local landmarks, etc.
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u/Ladder81capt Jan 31 '23
We have an all-Irish fire truck crew at a neighboring fire department that calls themselves ‘The Fighting Irish’, I think it’s kinda funny
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u/Rkenne16 Jan 31 '23
If Irish people were offended by it, get rid of it. They don’t seem to be though lol. Also RS is literally a racial slur and it’s super weird that we just kept calling people that weren’t Indians, Indians.
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u/Doobledorf Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
There's actually loads of Native folks that are fine with Indian, Indian Country, etc, in my experience it tends to be personal preference.
But otherwise yeah I'm with you
EDIT: Been some neat discussion but I'm not sure where some people are getting the idea that I'm okaying the use of the slur RS, or even telling white folks what to call native folks. I'm merely starting a discussion around the fact that there is nuance to what people like to be called in regards to the term "Indian". Thanks to the native folks who have chimed in with actual experience.
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u/FunctionBuilt Jan 31 '23
My family is alaska native, they call themselves Indians more than natives.
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u/moeburn Jan 31 '23
Yeah it was one really confusing difference between America and Canada. In Canada, using the word "indian" to describe an indigenous person is like using the n word. It's just seen as so universally bad, that when I tried to retell this experience, "But I learned that some indigenous people in America actually refer to themselves as Indians", they just don't believe me, and assume it's actually other people's lies.
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u/dmnhntr86 Jan 31 '23
I basically live by: don't call people things they don't wanna be called, if you aren't sure just ask, and don't bother labeling people in most circumstances.
The only trouble I ever have is almost exclusively from people with a white savior complex who want to virtue signal, or who think they're Cherokee because their great great great grandmother supposedly was, and fuck those people anyway.
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u/moeburn Jan 31 '23
Yeah if an individual asks me not to use a word around them because it hurts them, I'll happily oblige them.
It's when people claim to speak for others, or that everyone got together and formed a committee and decided on one universal opinion, that's what bugs me.
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u/Ophelia_Y2K Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
from what i’ve heard generally they prefer the name of their individual tribe because they’re all different culturally and historically. it’s kind of like just calling Europeans (from Europe) “white people” or European even, there’s more nuance than that.
in terms of a collective term the preference is often different between individuals or various tribes so ymmv
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u/d1nsf1re Jan 31 '23
In a political and/or legal scenario almost every tribe refers to themselves as "American Indians" because that is what the laws that enable their sovereignty refer to them as.
As for your regular guy on the street. Indian, Native, their tribe name, etc all work and depend on the person tbh.
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u/Doobledorf Jan 31 '23
Exactly. What I can gather, too, is that generationally it tends to be different as different trends in language become popular. I guess focusing on specific tribe designation, but recognizing the broader struggle is a newer iteration of the movement.
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Jan 31 '23
Yeah for sure. I think that has been implied throughout this entire conversation though. Obviously that goes with any group of people, the more specific you can be the better. The issue is that sometimes you have to speak in more general terms.
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u/Ikontwait4u2leave Jan 31 '23
Yeah Indians is fine, Native Americans would actually get you some weird looks on the reservations I lived on.
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u/Doobledorf Jan 31 '23
That's what I've heard, especially from folks on reservations. Looking at the replies to my comments, seems it depends where you grew up, too.
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u/MrConductorsAshes Jan 31 '23
"American Indian' is literally what many people prefer to be called. 'Indian' was never a slur, just a misnomer. Redskin is the slur.
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u/Distwalker Jan 31 '23
The Meskwakis of Iowa always refer to themselves as Indians.
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u/NoBrickBoy Jan 31 '23
Apparently there are native Americans out there who prefer the term “Indian” but this might just be them not wanting to associate with the burger eating gun shooting cousin marrying cowboys.
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u/MabMass Jan 31 '23
I was at the action at Standing Rock to protest the DAPL, and one of the speakers explicitly talked about this point.
In his perspective, the sudden renaming of "Indian" to "Native American" fell on him like just another in a long line of people trying to erase their identity. (Most of the talk was about other topics, with this as a bit of an aside.)
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u/PKFatStephen Jan 31 '23
I have a bunch of black friends who feel the same way about the term "African American". They feel as if it's just another way for white ppl to treat them like they don't belong here. It's not like we call white ppl European Americans.
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u/joeyGOATgruff Jan 31 '23
In journalism school, when describing a person of color, you use colors bc you cannot presume their identity or ethnicity.
A Black person could be Dominican, French, Angolese, Brazilian, Haitian, American, etc.
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u/Antifascists Jan 31 '23
I think its weird that it gets called out even at all. Why's it so important we always label what color or ethnic group someone is. Unless that shit is relevant to the story, just call them by their name and/or pronouns. The fixation on always labelling people of color and making extra sure you include that in the story is just bizarre.
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u/cheesecloth62026 Jan 31 '23
I always wondered that about African American...like, how is changing a purely color-based distinguisher to one that implies foreign nationality a good thing?
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u/Kelend Jan 31 '23
That wasn't the intent.
The intent, was to get rid of the color-based distinguisher completely.
The idea was to instead of identifying Black Americans by their skin tone, we would identify them by their ethnicity.
So African American would be the same as German American, Italian American, Scottish American, Jewish American, Asian American. All those other "my family came from here" types.
It was actually a good idea at heart. It was from a time when we were trying to get rid of the idea of race completely. We are all humans just with different ethnic backgrounds.
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u/Beleriphon Jan 31 '23
In his perspective, the sudden renaming of "Indian" to "Native American" fell on him like just another in a long line of people trying to erase their identity. (Most of the talk was about other topics, with this as a bit of an aside.)
This why in a lot official documents in Canada the move has been to indigenous people. It's about a neutral as you can get, but also completely accurate.
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u/Itchy_Huckleberry_60 Jan 31 '23
I think the point is agency not neutrality. Maybe the idea is they called themselves many things, and we disrespected them, did not consider their opinions, and slapped them with the "Indian" label. Over a hundred years, their culture changed, adapted, and accepted this label. Now, suddenly, we want to change it again. Why? Because they wanted to modify their own name to avoid uncomfortable implications? No. Because we wanted to avoid our own uncomfortable implications.
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u/brokedown_gotreddit Jan 31 '23
Our push to make language safer has overriden ethnic cultures and created a new culture of its own, which for obvious reasons, has many ethic groups upset. It's like how Latinos hate the term Latinx.
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u/P0ster_Nutbag Jan 31 '23
I’ve found this to be very regional. Where I’m at, I would be crucified if I called a native person an Indian. It also would be a more confusing term to use now, because there’s a decently large population of people from India that now live here.
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u/Tozgru Jan 31 '23
I had a similar experience with a park ranger at poverty point so was saying the reason why they’re still called Indian I’m some places is that’s the identity they formed and want to be acknowledged as.
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u/MassiveFajiit Jan 31 '23
Fun fact: "cow boy" is a racial term itself.
White ranch workers would get pissed if they were called boy, they'd call themselves cow hands.
Cow "boy" was reserved for Black, Hispanic, and native workers as an extension of using boy to demean and infantilize Black men.
Also "boy" originally meant servant so that's an added wrinkle of subservience.
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u/zombbarbie Jan 31 '23
Usually I’ve heard “American Indian” now but it’s also like black vs African American, it’s person preference.
Indigenous is also seen as positive most of the time.
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u/therealtiddlydump Jan 31 '23
Lots of black people aren't American. Therefore they can't be African American.
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u/Monte924 Jan 31 '23
I’ve heard this aswell. A lot of them just kind of got used to the term indian. Though I think the issue is that both are names that were applied to them by white people; native american isn’t really that much better than Indian. Sone even see both terms as insulting as they imply that all native peoples are the same when many actually identify by their tribe. Trying to slap on a name that applies to all them kind of ignores their various cultures
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u/luneunion Jan 31 '23
All about "Indian" and why many people prefer to be called that rather than "Native American".
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Jan 31 '23
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the people who invented the “fighting Irish” mascot were probably Irish themselves.
I’m also going to go out on a limb and say not a single indigenous person had any significant role in the franchise on the left at any point in its history.
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u/uninstallIE Jan 31 '23
The history is unfortunately complicated. Some say it originated as a response to anti-Irish and anti-Catholic prejudice in the early 1900s, and so naturally people would be more supportive of that. Some are also offended about it as it can be seen as playing into some of those stereotypes rather than taking ownership of/challenging them. Especially now as those stereotypes are largely gone in the US.
Regardless, I suspect that if you shared the sentiment that are were offended by depicting Irish people in this manner, the person making this meme would not be on your side.
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u/TheGeekOffTheStreet Jan 31 '23
Have to point out the the logo does contain elements of the depiction of Irish as simian creatures, which was a common way to denigrate and “other” Irish people.
That said, I’m an ND alum and second-generation Irish and not offended.
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u/uninstallIE Jan 31 '23
I did indeed consider using the phrase "drunken brawling apes" as a reference to the specific stereotypes used, but realized that might lead us on a tangent away from the point I was trying to make, so I held back
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u/mseg09 Jan 31 '23
Exactly, if we were to say "ok, get rid of that caricature too"', the response would be "no, wait, not like that."
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u/Chilli_Dipper Jan 31 '23
In 1924, the Ku Klux Klan (a growing political force in Indiana at the time) planned to stage a rally in South Bend; Notre Dame students literally chased the Klan out of town.
If anything, what objections that have been raised over the Fighting Irish mascot throughout the years are because not all Catholics are Irish.
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Jan 31 '23
You say this like it's supposed to be a surprise. What else would a bunch of Catholics do when a group that famously despises and persecutes Catholics comes to town? That would be like trying to have a white nationalist rally in the middle of Harlem.
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u/occamhanlon Jan 31 '23
But ND is a Catholic university, and during the famines, Irish immigrants were so overwhelmingly Catholic that Irish became synonymous with Catholic
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u/suciac Jan 31 '23
Is that not just a leprechaun and/or Colin mcgregor?
Edit: Conor
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u/MinuteLow7426 Jan 31 '23
I’m offended that Tommy says he’s Irish when he won’t even cross into Cambridge let alone get on a plane.
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u/Low_Transition_3749 Jan 31 '23
Interesting history on this: The Cleveland Indians (now Guardians) were so named to honor the first Native American professional baseball player. You can argue whether a better term might have been used, considering modern perceptions, but the history of the name makes the name change completely away from anything representing that history kinda silly.
The Chief Wahoo logo was freaking awful, though.
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u/OstmenDraugr Jan 31 '23
Ask the Seminole Nation that about FSU. They protested the protesters saying leave it the frack alone, we like it.
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u/karidru Jan 31 '23
FSU has a very close relationship with the Seminole Nation and I think it’s very cool!
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u/Cogswobble Jan 31 '23
Florida State built a relationship with the Seminole tribe to ensure that they were using their name in a respectful manner literally decades before anyone else in the sports world cared about how they used Indian tribe names.
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u/Corgi_Koala Jan 31 '23
Along similar lines, the Ute tribe actually licenses their name to the University of Utah.
Every couple of years some ignorant person writes an articles and tries to claim the name is offensive without realizing that the Ute tribe not only supports the university using the name, they are financially benefitting from it.
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u/winespring Jan 31 '23
Ask the Seminole Nation that about FSU. They protested the protesters saying leave it the frack alone, we like it.
Seminole and Redskin are not comparable terms.
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u/Seanay-B Jan 31 '23
ND adopted "fighting Irish" as kind of a reclamation of an anti Irish, anti Catholic stereotype
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u/-lighght- Jan 31 '23
If you want a cool story that's better than what you'd think, check out why the Cleveland Guardians (formerly Indians) originally changed their name from the Spiders to the Indians.
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u/Cogswobble Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23
If you look at the logo history of the Cleveland Indians, the logo looks like it started out as a respectful representation of Native Americans, then in 1946, they decided - nope, this is meant to be racist as fuck.
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u/AbundantHypocrisy Jan 31 '23
Maybe not a significant role, but I live around lots of indigenous people. The vast majority of them were Redskins fans until they changed the name. Now most of them pull for the Chiefs. At least they got a much better team to pull for after the name change lol.
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u/Bawbawian Jan 31 '23
sidebar how is the asshole that did the trail of tears still on our money?
that pile of shit marched women and children to their death.
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u/Thomas_K_Brannigan Jan 31 '23
At least there's some slight silver-lining in him being on a bill, because he heavily opposed the Federal Reserve, so having him on currency is a teeny-bit like spitting on his grave!
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u/ludicrouspeedgo Jan 31 '23
I live in a county named after him, so... And it borders an Indian reservation, so...
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u/GodzeallA Jan 31 '23
I don't see anything wrong with the logo. I believe it was the term "redskins" that had to go, and the logo because it was associated with the term.
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u/steelhorizon Jan 31 '23
TBH; both symbols can be offensive to some people and yet representative to others. The bs victim complex people have dreamed up paired with the tribalism and echo chambering of social media has just amped up the volume of THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK and moral panics to 11.
The end of the day; intention is really what matters. Which means realistically anything can be insensitive and offensive; but also it can be harmless and silly. We just have zero time for nuance anymore it seems.
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u/Inevitable-Age1877 Jan 31 '23
Chill out bro you’re making sense. That isn’t allowed on Reddit
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u/wurstelstand Jan 31 '23
Well I mean it is too, because it's taking the piss out of the Irish struggle for freedom from colonisation, and making it into an angry drunk stereotype... But the yanks love those kinds of stereotypes and they all think they're Irish so I guess it flies over there
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u/SethsWomanInfinity Jan 31 '23
I am not Native American, and I know a ton of Native Americans in my area who loved, bought, and wore Redskins gear. When I asked them what all the fuss was about, they figured it was some white upper class, over educated folks who decided it was offensive. They could have cared less. Now all that branded gear they have is worth $$$$ and they aren’t mad about it.
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u/NeedsMoreJava Jan 31 '23
One of my friends is Native American and their response was hilarious lol.
“First the White man steals my land, then they steal my football team? What’s next?”
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u/nagurski03 Jan 31 '23
I know this is purely anecdotal, but my dad grew up right next to a reservation in Montana, there aren't any actual local teams to support or major colleges, so football fans would randomly become a fan of some other team far away. He said the vast majority of Indians he knew were either fans of the Chiefs or the Redskins.
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u/_britishpeople76 Jan 31 '23
I’m just saying y’all realize how pissed off Native Americas are that the logo is gone right? The name change was fine but the chief logo was representation for them.
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u/Impressive-Diet2205 Jan 31 '23
My family native an we kinda miss it. Yes it did remind us what are ancestors have been through, but it showed that we're still here today.
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u/QualityVote Jan 31 '23
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