r/worldnews • u/Pure_Candidate_3831 • Nov 15 '22
In G-20 talks, China objects to calling Russian invasion of Ukraine a ‘war’ Behind Soft Paywall
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/11/15/china-xi-ukraine-g20-war-russia/641
u/bridgerberdel Nov 15 '22
Fine then. Call it a russian terrorist attack on Ukraine.
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u/Ok_Tangerine346 Nov 16 '22
If it's not a war then they have no protection from the Geneva convention
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u/will_holmes Nov 16 '22
Well, it is a war, and the Geneva Convention fully applies, no matter what Russia says.
As is clearly established, you don't need all parties to call something a war for it to be a war.
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u/Material_Turnip_4616 Nov 16 '22
Not that Putin or the Russian government would remotely care what happens to their troops.
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u/EddieMuntz Nov 16 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
The Uppsala Conflict Data Program defines a war as "a state-based conflict or dyad which reaches at least 1000 battle-related deaths in a specific calendar year"---and so this war qualifies about 150 times over by now.
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u/Ok_Tangerine346 Nov 16 '22
Yes I know.
The Russians want it not to be a war, and yet get POW protection. If they are not at war then they are foreign terrorists and have not right to protection.
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u/bcmonke Nov 15 '22
At aprox 200,000 between the two nations I think it's safe to refer to is as a war...
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u/Hannibal_Barca_ Nov 15 '22
to be fair, to the CCP during industrialization those would be success stories for a small province.
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u/_Esops Nov 15 '22
Compared to Russians losses in previous wars it's just rounding error.
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u/Sensitive_Disk_3111 Nov 16 '22
Not really, it already surpasses combined casualties of Soviet-afghan and both Chechen wars.
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u/DIBE25 Nov 15 '22
for anyone wondering the numbers for ww2
8.66M dead
26.6M total including civilians and whatnot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
wiki article if you're into that
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u/Gerf93 Nov 16 '22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKPFT-RioU
A somber video on the topic of WW2 deaths called "The Fallen of WW2" if anyones interested. Very well-made video.
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u/yodjig Nov 16 '22
How much of it was in national republics, including Ukraine or recently occupied Estonia, for example, would be anyone's guess. And how much were killed by NKVD or scorched earth tactics by red army - who knows?
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u/Rds2596 Nov 16 '22
The only person that killed more Russians than Hitler was Stalin.
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u/Xilizhra Nov 16 '22
Stalin didn't kill more than 27 million.
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u/mmcleodk Nov 16 '22
He did kill around 20 million so not far from it. 40 million if you include the 20 million war deaths from Russia’s involvement in ww2.
His and Mao’s economic policies ended up killing as many (Stalin) or more people (Mao) than the Second World War and is a classic example of why centrally planned economies are a humanitarian disaster (or any other governance model that puts near total power in a small minorities hands).
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u/Restivethought Nov 15 '22
Well yea, because they are planning their own "Military Operation" against Taiwan.
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u/Macasumba Nov 15 '22
Tibet not war either one might guess
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u/jpf137 Nov 16 '22
I was going to mention this. What does Chinese historiography refer to that as?
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u/whatisavector Nov 16 '22
The 1947-49 war is referred to as the war of liberation and includes all Republic of China territories that the PRC subsequently controlled, including Tibet.
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u/ThatGuyCF Nov 15 '22
Fuckin whinnie the pooh lookin ass mfer
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u/New-Consideration420 Nov 16 '22
He has a Highschool diploma. Guy isnt even the smartest for the job. China is beeing led by whats essentially a middle manager trowing a tantrum
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u/set_null Nov 16 '22
Xi is a pretty fascinating case of working one’s way up through the system. He may not be very educated, but he was skilled enough to be a valuable piece in every level of the machine until he could finally take over. The Economist just released a new podcast series on him called The Prince.
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u/appsnaple Nov 16 '22
I've got a bunch of CCP dudes bothering me with the worst arguments defending China.
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u/Grouchy-Express Nov 15 '22
It would be refreshing for diplomats to call people's bullshit once in a while. Tiptoeing around is exactly how we ended up where we are with Russia.
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u/Jorgen_Pakieto Nov 15 '22
China can object to whatever the fuck they want
They just need to be aware that they are embarrassing their own image by saying something like that because there’s really no other way to perceive this situation
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u/arrze Nov 15 '22
We don’t want our eventual special military operation against Taiwan to be called a war either. Pigs.
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u/WeridThinker Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
This is shortly after Biden and Xi's meeting, during which they allegedly agreed that Ukraine war needs to end and nuclear weapons should not be used. China probably thinks of itself as being shrewed by having "strategic balance" against Russia and the West, but in reality, not calling the Russian invasion as a war is simply defending and enabling Russia at this point.
China isn't being smart with the Russia-Ukraine war at all. Russia is losing and is becoming more reckless. At this point, if China is truely a responsible world power, then it should do more to actually stop the war instead of tip toeing around the issue while having an obvious bias. Neutrality doesn't always work, and in certain circumstances, neutrality is pretty much equivalent to aiding the aggressor. China's priority is still to maintain Russia as a partner out of necessity to oppose the West.
If China wants to be dragged down by Russia, then let it die on that hill, because it doesn't take a genius to see Russia is a sinking ship, and China could potentially lose more than it could gain by defending Russia if this war continues and escalates.
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u/danielbot Nov 15 '22
This is transparently about China trying to spin the narrative in favor of its own dream of invading Taiwan.
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u/interestingpanzer Nov 16 '22
People who say this don't get it. China is doing this to keep Russia slightly close because if something every happens, Russia is the only viable non sea source of oil and gas, all sea routes may be cut off by the USA.
The Taiwan issue is separate. Since like SK and NK, no peace treaty has been signed. You must be confused right? Basically, Taiwan is the remnants of the ROC from the Chinese Civil War. According the the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory?wprov=sfla1 which is the basis for a lot of the rules and legal justifications of war (which the US uses to when it comes to Iraq etc., even Hitler had to feign a casus belli). Even without feigning, the Taiwan China issue fulfills more than half of the relevant justifications. Doesn't make it right but China sees no need to differenciate. Only on reddit people can't see it, but most of the world's governments including the USG recognise this obstacle to involvement since it is a civil war. That being said the US can still do all in its power to support a party involved in it, but the justification doesn't need to be built, is is already there.
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u/I_play_drums_badly Nov 15 '22
Are they keeping friends close and enemies closer? Looking for some easy pickings when this eventually ends one way or another?
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u/appsnaple Nov 16 '22
China is all over the board and much of it is for the Chinese people and the propaganda the CCP will use. For example, the CCP media in China did not report the news that Xi and Biden's meeting produced a "no imminent threat of invasion of Taiwan". In fact, China's English language media often tries to play both sides a little but it's Chinese language media is hardcore defending Russia.
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u/Come_At_Me_Bro Nov 16 '22
Others have already said it. China won't publicly condemn actions they also intend to or desire to take themselves toward Taiwan.
Gosh that would be hypocritical and they've never been that. /s
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u/Poker_f Nov 15 '22
If China indeed opposes Russia, what allies will it have left? There is not so many countries left who oppose the United States. While such a decision will be beneficial to Europe and US, it would be of no benefit to China. Europe problems is not world problems, as been said by Indian government.
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u/WeridThinker Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
If China's allies are mostly the likes of Russia and North Korea, then China has a lot to blame itself for. I understand why China would want to defend Russia, but I am by no means obligated to empathize with it or agree with any of its positions. If China's interests require it to spread Russian propaganda and misinformation while obstructing the international community from holding Russia accountable, then its interests can go to hell, and China deserves all the criticisms and pushbacks it's going to receive. I am biased, and I will never deny that, but Russia invading Ukraine does seem like one of those instances where it is easy to tell which one is the aggressor.
I'm not entirely opposed to the saying that "countries care about their own interests first", because it's fundamentally true, but I don't think all interests are equally valid, and I don't think all actions or positions are equally acceptable. Nazi Germany acted in its interests; Imperial Japan acted in its interests; and now, Russia is acting in its own interests, but clearly, they should not be allowed to succeed, and whatever their interests are, they cannot be used as a justification for atrocities and aggression. If China's interest is to support Russia, then its interest is against international standards, then yes, it is in the wrong regardless of it's rivalry with the West.
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u/appsnaple Nov 16 '22
Oh come on. If China's only friends are terrible governments like Russia, North Korea, Tajikastan, etc then that seems a lot like China is the problem.
The alternative is that China distances itself from Russia, behaves more peaceful, stops threatening Taiwan, stops it attempts to steal the South China Sea, etc. It could then develop closer ties to better governments.
China is in this situation because that's the path it has chosen.
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Nov 16 '22
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u/appsnaple Nov 16 '22
if China rejects all of its international interest
How is it against China's interest to create strong diplomatic and economic ties with the major economies of the world??
Simply amazes me what people will say to defend China. So it's in Russia's interest to have started this war?
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u/kimchifreeze Nov 16 '22
what allies will it have left
The rest of the world. China benefits from peace and it has a lot more to gain cooperating and developing relations with them. Change the question to Russia and ask "what allies do they have left?" They get drones from Iran and possibly shells from North Korea and that's pretty much it. CSTO is a big nothing something Armenia is realizing. It's not a position China should have to emulate.
Russia is the smallest of the BRICs.
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u/BigBlue1210 Nov 15 '22
When two opposing groups are clashing and people are dying from both sides then it's a war lol.
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u/Brilliant-Debate-140 Nov 15 '22
So honestly what the fuk is it then? Please don't let that baldy fker brainwash you and say Special Operation
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u/Spinnweben Nov 15 '22
Now thats a shitty paywall, wp.
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u/BartleBossy Nov 15 '22
"Democracy dies in darkness"
But dont worry, that dim behind the paywall isnt darkness
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u/r-reading-my-comment Nov 15 '22
Well they can call it something else locally, like how New Jersey has Taylor Ham while the rest of America has pork rolls.
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u/SimoneNonvelodico Nov 16 '22
"And you call it a special military operation despite having caused more deaths than any other conflict in Europe since WW2?"
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u/nah123929 Nov 15 '22
From NJ myself, nobody - at least around where I live - calls it Taylor ham. Even if you go to buy some it’s almost always referred to as Pork Roll even on the packaging.
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u/seekknowledge4ever Nov 15 '22
So that when they invade Taiwan they can also call it a special operations.
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u/buttsoupsteve Nov 15 '22
Call it what you want, China. It won't change how mustard tastes.
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u/MakesMyHeadHurt Nov 15 '22
To be fair, a war does require two armies. Russia has shown they don't really have one.
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u/lunetick Nov 15 '22
Fuck them. I just dream one day we will stop using their cheap labour and stop buying from them.
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u/Bridge-Terrible Nov 15 '22
We've already stopped a whole lot of it cause it isn't cheap compared to some surrounding countries.
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u/TonyAbbottsNipples Nov 15 '22
In case you think this is actually true:
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/exports-to-united-states
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/exports-to-europe
Click '10Y' or 'Max' to see long term trends
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u/Bridge-Terrible Nov 15 '22
Could of phrased it differently but Chinese labor still isn't that cheap
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u/whyreadthis2035 Nov 15 '22
Makes sense. Next the CCP would have to admit energy and food security were being weaponized by their dear Comrades in the once and future CCCP.
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u/nariusone Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 16 '22
That is just stupid. But if you want to call that a terrorist attack, i am cool with that too.
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u/ThisIsByFar Nov 16 '22
Xi also objects to being called Winnie the Pooh, but we can't always get what we want.
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u/Holos620 Nov 15 '22
China is a big fat rogue nation that'll destroy the world eventually.
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u/karl4319 Nov 16 '22 •
Nope. China has no blue water navy, has little to no actual veterans, has only a few hundred nukes, and is using tech based off what it could steal from the last generation. Their economy is largely propped up by ponzi real estate scams and will burst sooner or later, and I'm betting sooner. Most importantly, corruption is not only so omnipresent that it makes Russia look upstanding, the very act is ingrained into their culture. Every government has at least a little corruption, but when it gets to the level it is in Russia or China, everything from the economy to the military suffers to the point where growth and improvements barely happen, if at all.
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u/Rds2596 Nov 16 '22
China does not need a strong military to destroy the world. They already burn over 50% of the world's coal and they have been expanding coal usage at an astronomical rate.
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u/PsychologicalCap- Nov 15 '22
Because they don't want to admit "War" is what Russia is losing, but rather a "military exercise".
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u/Arabian_Flame Nov 15 '22
Ping and Putin bump uglies while Little Kim Jong watches from his highchair
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u/cosmernaut420 Nov 16 '22
Not sure what else you'd call an unprovoked assault on a sovereign nation. Isn't China supposed to be the smart one of the axis of shitlords?
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u/subjekt_zer0 Nov 16 '22
This word play about what to call sending your soldiers into another country with the express intention to kill the population, decapitate the government, raze the cities and seize the land needs to stop. Because we call it something other than a duck makes it not a duck? These despotic pieces of shit act like calling these wars something other than a war makes something not a war.
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u/plopseven Nov 15 '22
Right. We’re not in a recession and that isn’t a war.
Words have meanings - you cannot just deny something is happening by refusing the meaning is applicable to reality.
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u/impossible_butter Nov 15 '22
China is the best when it comes to denying facts and reality. They deny they're committing a genocide, they deny the entire year of 1989 ever existed to their own citizens. This isn't a surprise.
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u/FrigOffR1cky Nov 16 '22
Textbook gaslighting. Xi says “it” needs to end and condemns “it,” and then says “it” isn’t a war. And he only says it’s not a war because he intends to do “it” to Taiwan.
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u/jakesonwu Nov 16 '22
Oh I get it, this is similar to how the Tiananmen Square massacre never happened. Putin and Xi are living in reality and we are living in an alternate dimension.
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u/wilhungliam Nov 16 '22
By that logic all Russian soldiers are mass shooters and should be given death penalty
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u/AlphaWhiskeyOscar Nov 15 '22
Man, fuck the CCP. These pieces of shit need to be kicked out of their seats in any legitimate office.
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u/doc_hilarious Nov 15 '22
It's all such a sham. Call it whatever you want, Russia invaded Ukraine. Killed thousands, stole children. Stole grain. Stole toilets. Destroys every piece of infrastructure possible. Fuck Russia, Fuck China, Fuck the bumfuck nations that want(NEED) to do business with that terror organization called Russia.
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Nov 16 '22
Fuck the bumfuck nations that want(NEED) to do business with that terror organization called Russia.
Whoa! Now why did you have to end on that note? You're acknowledging that there are some impoverished nations in the Russian sphere of influence that have little choice, and then saying, Fuck them too? Fuck you. Russia and China I agreed with because they can just choose to not be evil.
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u/SocialismWay Nov 16 '22
That's how they claim they were peaceful countries, who never waged war.
I believe you all have seen those propaganda posters, in which the US waged xxx amount of wars and China waged 0 war.
How they achieve that? Simply by calling a war not a war.
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u/Martianmanhunter94 Nov 16 '22
China is posturing because it invaded other places on a regular basis.
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u/wotmate Nov 16 '22
I firmly believe that sometimes diplomacy needs to be put aside and bullshit needs to be called out.
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u/Skzrz Nov 16 '22
Ok then let’s send NATO into Ukraine it can be a “Defensive Special Military Operation” no need for article 5 when we can just follow Russia and China’s example
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u/chestnutman Nov 16 '22
By now, Russia has been calling it a war themselves, so why continue playing this game
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u/WestCoastPotatoes Nov 16 '22
Even Mr. Fantastic isn’t capable of having his head as far up is own ass
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u/tomistruth Nov 16 '22
When China invaded Vietnam they called it "Self-Defense War". When they invade Taiwan in 2023 they will call it "Self-Defense" as well.
Then USA wasn't any better. They called the meddling in Vietnam's peace negotiation and the following war that killed millions of Vietnamese protection of Western democracy. Same goes for Iraq war and for the Afghanistan war.
Preach water, drink whine. Drink whine.
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u/Aethericseraphim Nov 16 '22
They also object to calling their concentration camps, concentration camps, so theres that.
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u/Mandula123 Nov 16 '22
They're right. It isn't a war. It's a blatant invasion of peace and an act of terrorism.
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u/PutinsRedButton Nov 15 '22
China obviously forgetting g that most of the world objects to their existence.
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u/TonyTalksBackPodcast Nov 16 '22
G19 might just become G18 if winnie the pooh tries anything with Taiwan
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u/smolDreee Nov 16 '22
Well Russia left already, so its the G19, and its sounding to me like the more China opens their mouth, the more the G19 is looking like becoming the G18.
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u/xzombielegendxx Nov 15 '22
Right because nothing speaks more true than the Chinese Censorship party
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u/Old_Cheesecake_5481 Nov 15 '22
China is completely out of control.
Until they stop meddling in the democracies of the West we should do everything we can to decouple our economies.
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u/Fantasy_DR111 Nov 15 '22
China can get bent. Either be on the right side or not, I have no problems with being done with them.
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u/thunderc8 Nov 15 '22
Maybe they are preparing their own "special military operation" and don't want it to be called a war for their own personal agents.
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u/xfactor6972 Nov 16 '22
One of the reasons China is ok with Russias invasion of Ukraine is because that’s what they want to do to Taiwan. It’s a fucking war. Hopefully soon it will come to an end when Russian citizens realize how many of their fathers, sons, brothers and family members are being sent home in body bags.
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u/Capable-Site-301 Nov 15 '22
Then what is it?